Received: from mail-gg0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]:49376) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SwrQk-0001HC-HS; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 02:11:07 -0700 Received: by ggke5 with SMTP id e5sf10162123ggk.16 for ; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 02:10:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=l6MyA25cgbrSPmhMTNKpTCPtu63I5ahFkbQayAlnwms=; b=qpHVJpUyCRDSTMzCqpI1nv1/VnFF9xXOgN11q5gfCSQPe+R0RnBIkcc4u11odSVVio VcZnJwyDMB/FXS50Z94cueCo6nfaGRd7ANnss5NDDb4OQHwtN7lSCA7NPbtkR1RmEnOV ac9gd+C0OngTnu4rhE3RxWdBE3bTa3uyPNOXQ= Received: by 10.50.202.38 with SMTP id kf6mr119834igc.0.1343898647640; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 02:10:47 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.62.136 with SMTP id x8ls2747565ibh.7.gmail; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 02:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.50.220.161 with SMTP id px1mr470814igc.1.1343898646740; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 02:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.50.220.161 with SMTP id px1mr470811igc.1.1343898646670; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 02:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-f169.google.com (mail-ob0-f169.google.com [209.85.214.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b6si2271068igp.1.2012.08.02.02.10.46 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 02 Aug 2012 02:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.169; Received: by obhx4 with SMTP id x4so16339733obh.0 for ; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 02:10:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.24.4 with SMTP id q4mr13714750oef.50.1343898646068; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 02:10:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.85.68 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 02:10:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 05:10:45 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] racli/ralci From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8fb2060669bdec04c644c9af X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --e89a8fb2060669bdec04c644c9af Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 9:38 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas wro= te: > I don't think so. "blanu" for example will block "planu", but it won't > block "plana", so by playing with the final vowel you can probably > accomodate all 20315 four-letter initial forms. > I see what you mean. It would be interesting to attempt this computationally; the "transitivity" if you will of the blocking rules makes this seem like it could be subtler than either of us are seeing. You're closer to right than I was, though, if not actually right. > > An interesting computation: assuming every combination of 2 vowels and = 3 > > consonants can serve as exactly one gismu (which lets words differ only > in > > their final vowel; not doing so makes the current number of gismu just > > barely fit), you get 6800 possible words. > > Three _different_ consonants and two _different_ vowels, right? But > you can have gismu with two repeated consonants or vowels (e.g. > "nanba"). So I think the number for different combinations comes out > as 14280. > Good point, I didn't think of that possibility. I actually just wrote some code that puts down a gismu list with all letters distinct. It's pretty readily extensible; in particular I can easily change the order of the nesting, which significantly alters the words that actually get generated. A variant in which initial consonants vary first, then the cluster, then the initial vowel, then the final vowel, with no initial clusters whatsoever, results in http://pastebin.com/SYfHQf8p, which I found pretty interesting. > Almost all such combinations work, > > too: ignoring the 9 special exceptions, any 2 vowels obviously work, an= d > any > > group of 3 consonants will have at least 2 with have the same voicing. > > I would guess around 5-10% are blocked by the special exceptions. > Well, in the slightly naive computation earlier, it's 9/(191+48) =3D about 3.8%. mu'o mi'e latros --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --e89a8fb2060669bdec04c644c9af Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 9:38 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas= <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't think so. "blanu" for example will block "= planu", but it won't
block "plana", so by playing with the final vowel you can probabl= y
accomodate all 20315 four-letter initial forms.

I = see what you mean. It would be interesting to attempt this computationally;= the "transitivity" if you will of the blocking rules makes this = seem like it could be subtler than either of us are seeing. You're clos= er to right than I was, though, if not actually right.


> An interesting computation: assuming every combination of 2 vowels and= 3
> consonants can serve as exactly one gismu (which lets words differ onl= y in
> their final vowel; not doing so makes the current number of gismu just=
> barely fit), you get 6800 possible words.

Three _different_ consonants and two _different_ vowels, right? But you can have gismu with two repeated consonants or vowels (e.g.
"nanba"). So I think the number for different combinations comes = out
as 14280.
=A0
Good point, I didn't think= of that possibility. I actually just wrote some code that puts down a gism= u list with all letters distinct. It's pretty readily extensible; in pa= rticular I can easily change the order of the nesting, which significantly = alters the words that actually get generated. A variant in which initial co= nsonants vary first, then the cluster, then the initial vowel, then the fin= al vowel, with no initial clusters whatsoever, results in http://pastebin.com/SYfHQf8p, which I found pre= tty interesting.

> Almost all such combinations work,
> too: ignoring the 9 special exceptions, any 2 vowels obviously work, a= nd any
> group of 3 consonants will have at least 2 with have the same voicing.=

I would guess around 5-10% are blocked by the special exceptions.
=

Well, in the slightly naive computation earlier, it&#= 39;s 9/(191+48) =3D=A0 about 3.8%.

mu'o mi'e latros

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