Received: from mail-vc0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]:51653) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Swrh0-0001R1-7f; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 02:27:57 -0700 Received: by vcbfl10 with SMTP id fl10sf10185046vcb.16 for ; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 02:27:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=3p6q5+5MSjz7UPEkTjaB3bSwQU/eqjB7sgXWpbvBngg=; b=r7fnCkHds3luZetsRMjrZRFumFAlxEIuTU3q0E45D7UxD4GRZ/0H2/Qde1fqLHcgJv IbZBDB8WTtewubHJGc1Xt4tnmD4PXh/IC2FUZqt+ZAMJokAeiORXw+ppXxDdA/qVY7AK C/8Zh6/8FRMwb9VDzCPwvDVA7ebUdkpRuogwY= Received: by 10.50.46.131 with SMTP id v3mr125282igm.1.1343899655197; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 02:27:35 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.74.223 with SMTP id v31ls2801919ibj.0.gmail; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 02:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.8.197 with SMTP id ot5mr741253icb.25.1343899653647; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 02:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.8.197 with SMTP id ot5mr741252icb.25.1343899653628; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 02:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob0-f180.google.com (mail-ob0-f180.google.com [209.85.214.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ev10si4937210igc.2.2012.08.02.02.27.33 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 02 Aug 2012 02:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.180; Received: by mail-ob0-f180.google.com with SMTP id uo19so13040704obb.11 for ; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 02:27:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.60.24.7 with SMTP id q7mr34859894oef.54.1343899653299; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 02:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.85.68 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 02:27:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References:

Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 05:27:33 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] racli/ralci From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ff1c4e672df7704c6450598 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --e89a8ff1c4e672df7704c6450598 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Erm, woops, no, it doesn't force the letters to be distinct, as you can see from the very beginning :) On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 5:10 AM, Ian Johnson wrote: > On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 9:38 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas wr= ote: > >> I don't think so. "blanu" for example will block "planu", but it won't >> block "plana", so by playing with the final vowel you can probably >> accomodate all 20315 four-letter initial forms. >> > > I see what you mean. It would be interesting to attempt this > computationally; the "transitivity" if you will of the blocking rules mak= es > this seem like it could be subtler than either of us are seeing. You're > closer to right than I was, though, if not actually right. > > >> > An interesting computation: assuming every combination of 2 vowels and= 3 >> > consonants can serve as exactly one gismu (which lets words differ onl= y >> in >> > their final vowel; not doing so makes the current number of gismu just >> > barely fit), you get 6800 possible words. >> >> Three _different_ consonants and two _different_ vowels, right? But >> you can have gismu with two repeated consonants or vowels (e.g. >> "nanba"). So I think the number for different combinations comes out >> as 14280. >> > > Good point, I didn't think of that possibility. I actually just wrote som= e > code that puts down a gismu list with all letters distinct. It's pretty > readily extensible; in particular I can easily change the order of the > nesting, which significantly alters the words that actually get generated= . > A variant in which initial consonants vary first, then the cluster, then > the initial vowel, then the final vowel, with no initial clusters > whatsoever, results in http://pastebin.com/SYfHQf8p, which I found pretty > interesting. > > > Almost all such combinations work, >> > too: ignoring the 9 special exceptions, any 2 vowels obviously work, >> and any >> > group of 3 consonants will have at least 2 with have the same voicing. >> >> I would guess around 5-10% are blocked by the special exceptions. >> > > Well, in the slightly naive computation earlier, it's 9/(191+48) =3D abo= ut > 3.8%. > > > mu'o mi'e latros > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --e89a8ff1c4e672df7704c6450598 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Erm, woops, no, it doesn't force the letters to be distinct, as you can= see from the very beginning :)

On Thu, A= ug 2, 2012 at 5:10 AM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 9:38 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com= > wrote:

I don't think so. "blanu" for example will block "= planu", but it won't
block "plana", so by playing with the final vowel you can probabl= y
accomodate all 20315 four-letter initial forms.
=
I see what you mean. It would be interesting to attempt this computatio= nally; the "transitivity" if you will of the blocking rules makes= this seem like it could be subtler than either of us are seeing. You'r= e closer to right than I was, though, if not actually right.

> An interesting computation: assuming every combination of 2 vowels and= 3
> consonants can serve as exactly one gismu (which lets words differ onl= y in
> their final vowel; not doing so makes the current number of gismu just=
> barely fit), you get 6800 possible words.

Three _different_ consonants and two _different_ vowels, right? But you can have gismu with two repeated consonants or vowels (e.g.
"nanba"). So I think the number for different combinations comes = out
as 14280.
=A0
Good point, I didn't= think of that possibility. I actually just wrote some code that puts down = a gismu list with all letters distinct. It's pretty readily extensible;= in particular I can easily change the order of the nesting, which signific= antly alters the words that actually get generated. A variant in which init= ial consonants vary first, then the cluster, then the initial vowel, then t= he final vowel, with no initial clusters whatsoever, results in http://pastebin.com/SYfHQf8= p, which I found pretty interesting.

> Almost all such combinations work,
> too: ignoring the 9 special exceptions, any 2 vowels obviously work, a= nd any
> group of 3 consonants will have at least 2 with have the same voicing.=

I would guess around 5-10% are blocked by the special exceptions.
=

Well, in the slightly naive computation earlier= , it's 9/(191+48) =3D=A0 about 3.8%.

mu'o = mi'e latros

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