Received: from mail-ee0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]:51239)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRD1luyABRoERTViwA@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1Sx4hz-0001dr-K2; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 16:21:48 -0700
Received: by eeke49 with SMTP id e49sf17738eek.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 16:21:27 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date
         :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type
         :content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=xBL3p+IkplBKeCMLhd2b8HEYEIGF84MsCC/Nbl1P48g=;
        b=P2XE0YPjGVJF10RM4OdXqpoE/OcJskmLcMp9ZLHQbkYhx+xA8ITI0XsdCkTxbcSQPu
         XV1xUhabJKyurhqPAs1bvy5GT826xLxUGunwn9ACstp8j2qxqWU5E/HIleZfN7gNpdm8
         X4SNfkrThrzDphZ9UU2hArejZ39+TdvD4MSoY=
Received: by 10.216.9.168 with SMTP id 40mr573944wet.0.1343949685844;
        Thu, 02 Aug 2012 16:21:25 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.14.4.66 with SMTP id 42ls918605eei.2.gmail; Thu, 02 Aug 2012
 16:21:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.14.173.68 with SMTP id u44mr2802805eel.3.1343949685062;
        Thu, 02 Aug 2012 16:21:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.14.173.68 with SMTP id u44mr2802804eel.3.1343949685053;
        Thu, 02 Aug 2012 16:21:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ee0-f54.google.com (mail-ee0-f54.google.com [74.125.83.54])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 46si9809906eed.1.2012.08.02.16.21.25
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Thu, 02 Aug 2012 16:21:25 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.54;
Received: by eeke52 with SMTP id e52so16180eek.13
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Thu, 02 Aug 2012 16:21:25 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.14.184.133 with SMTP id s5mr28994240eem.31.1343949684937; Thu,
 02 Aug 2012 16:21:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.14.178.196 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Aug 2012 16:21:24 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <CA+gZtgK+p7n_k79ZONBO_VJEvOwG2nSqSe2KW5o71mo15FdtkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMKwHj0H=Nx=-tz2DzdcBhwtCYhv5LAm+33suBa-kvdA6Pgz_g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+gZtg+bj61jPd-XqzQ4pLKTN3gRF7Zy_HAGQDHSkkhgrq33sw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAO7tK2djSAONoSaQLGkH6ZLLZ5WAEMCCCVn=barDku_wQfD7aw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+gZtgK+p7n_k79ZONBO_VJEvOwG2nSqSe2KW5o71mo15FdtkA@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 20:21:24 -0300
Message-ID: <CAO7tK2dYQ9tx6EhDn=a+oxUnRXMKBrX-dV9oKU742b4pvcHE2g@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] racli/ralci
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.54 as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 6:10 AM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 9:38 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com> w=
rote:
>>
>> I don't think so. "blanu" for example will block "planu", but it won't
>> block "plana", so by playing with the final vowel you can probably
>> accomodate all 20315 four-letter initial forms.
>
> I see what you mean. It would be interesting to attempt this
> computationally; the "transitivity" if you will of the blocking rules mak=
es
> this seem like it could be subtler than either of us are seeing. You're
> closer to right than I was, though, if not actually right.

But the blocking rules are for the most part not transitive. if b
blocks p and p blocks f, it doesn't follow that b blocks f. The only
transitive group is k/x/g. If I'm not mistaken, you can mostly do it
with only two vowels. You only need 3 vowels when k/g/x are involved.
The blocking rules sort all the forms in groups of up to 32 members.
For example, you can sort the blanu group (16 members) with only two
vowels as follows:

blanu bramu plamu pranu flanu framu vlamu vranu
plana prama blama brana vlana vrama flama frana

For the kakne group (18 members) you need three vowels:

kakne kagme xaxme xagne gakme gaxne
kagni kaxmi xakmi xaxni gakni gagmi
kakma kaxna xakna xagma gaxma gagna

The most numerous groups contain 32 members, but can be sorted with
only two vowels.

So you could in principle have a maximum of 20315 gismu forms and
respect all the current forbidden clusters and blocking rules.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.