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[98.139.52.198]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id vo7si3432834pbc.1.2012.08.05.16.32.37; Sun, 05 Aug 2012 16:32:37 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.52.198 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.139.52.198; Received: from [98.139.52.189] by nm1.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Aug 2012 23:32:36 -0000 Received: from [68.142.194.243] by tm2.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Aug 2012 23:32:36 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.104] by t1.bullet.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Aug 2012 23:32:36 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1009.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Aug 2012 23:32:36 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 304503.8770.bm@omp1009.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 49544 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Aug 2012 23:32:35 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: zxrrwgMVM1kC6Ds2HseEosr2LJHRYCK_ABWcuT2lgoHZgmk 17D5xWzAgKrkcIW2jxc21b.l7huxTZLnyHg0bb2eEWIqoogUwkiQm.3sAZka 1pTI.9.T6PXgLpwYduq95ggbzjRsFXqVS6VmUj8C1YfflAq0VLXqVJpYQxG9 c8EP9e62F9uYLJ3aNrXJW2gZ3.k4j7ocX5St2fuGIPbBkAk9StimeDOBibSH XwBmEf4TpjJO032JhFysXxyVbSAzv8NRkc5QeTbOOlpRLOeUoW25jhJM3.9Z c2W1BlBuoJwXtk2rmIU0KusWbvMLovPYpxMcdeqwogCYkZKcYpW7Xqy.iv9H Mx.UQNOo4EVPrKMKr6k23j0HZsu23s0YIXLnItk4OfLuaKZ383UDFKrHMRW3 fVvXQse_R9ZMjljsxxlZHBOTEIclser.rqJfWBafKzVBizVfFuXvzbclLFWJ Jw6b5drkgKqRPTnb15u1X8XKGng0TN_brOlYKrnquqYA_hikwGRd8vGJ9c5e QsDnXu_Ah_Au7nnmOvOeBAnrGe5em3FIUgz7TKrBnY.JGCjlmvbIT1WTEcBO 9VtLwIatmk7k5gCpfj.hU84pJtYwQRBkCtE_2ICi3vIPDG7d5YDYvT6kBbN6 dt_9R5jpOWk0CPwJxXNU6UHNWtxYZ6qMY5xHuRoXvR5zewiHE7AG.TTtyi2h UXIbPXgctOFPpll9s.FKS8FV7OdpqOB5MHyfLYxpNTkiBP9dHsVkJ2q.lv4H gcYINfGsNPKojKQ906x0E7OiWhJaRx.rCt5Z2xyv_0WrJUBToNfGG8dkFN1M GSCHMtt6xQfD4tW6iLEJG3diAS3vBOQphmsi.4.rlMUlY9PF_2cTY2yWs1mi g9Sm82zGETXYd11IqOnX7uWtERCpbOHZwCH44vBF9cJIldxEp4dQ2ynt1qSx HPxvV7mIJwxMPobM6t1q_BOGA Received: from [99.92.108.194] by web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 05 Aug 2012 16:32:34 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.120.356233 References: Message-ID: <1344209554.36959.YahooMailNeo@web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 16:32:34 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Revising mu'ei and CAhA once again. Possible worlds. To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.52.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1009959307-405552628-1344209554=:36959" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --1009959307-405552628-1344209554=:36959 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No, trivalent (and other multivalent) logic does not deal with possible wor= lds, it is entirely cisworld, not transworld.=A0 You could combine the two,= allowing multivalence in each possible world and perhaps even get some exp= lanations of=A0 one logic in terms of the other, e.g, that a sentence gets = the value 1 in a world just in case it got the value 2=A0 in some world alt= ernate to that one.=A0=A0 But multivalent logics do not depend on such noti= ons, nor reflect them very well at all (the metatheorem just cited doesn't = go over to a theorem very well). "Possible worlds" covers a multitude of different systems, not all of which= can be conveniently brought into a single scheme, the Lewis series, say, o= r the slightly more generous Kripke one, or the Prior tense-based sets.=A0 = Some things are common to all (possible worlds, I suppose, for one) but tec= hniques appropriate in one area, temporal modalities, say, do not apply in = deontic or epistemic modalities nor in the various subjunctive realms: fict= ion, representation, contrary-to-fact conditionals, etc. For one major exam= ple, the role of the "real world" (the world of primary evaluation) in very= different in these, critical in some cases, irrelevant in others, one worl= d among many in still others.=A0 Similarly, the metrics which may be laid u= pon the the world-connecting vectors, have a variety of different rules, ra= nging from highly complex to non-existent.=A0 The genesis of the possible w= orlds is important in some cases, irrelevant (indeed, unaskable) in others. Lojban provides AT MOST a way of starting to talk in some of these= ways, but nothing like the a fully functioning language for any of them.= =20 I am not sure whether Lojban has even a fully functional trivalent language= , though I suspect that xorxes six unary functions and an appropriate under= standing of the given connectives would permit us to build up something, a = la Guzman.=A0 But it would be, at best, a very poor substitute for any poss= ible world system or even the small practical parts, like the various subju= nctives. ________________________________ From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, August 5, 2012 12:16 PM Subject: [lojban] Revising mu'ei and CAhA once again. Possible worlds. =20 Continuation of http://www.lojban.org/tiki/mu'ei Note:This topic should be analysed from the Trivalent logic point of view a= s the latter also deals with Possible worlds. But let's get started with more simple stuff. mu'ei has always been a problem for me. Although the wiki was simple in des= cribing it I felt something incomplete or illogical there. Luckily, Lojbanistan has some authority and one can always ask how others s= olve the same problem. Here is the log. Do you use mu'ei in real life? Do you have any thoughts of making a= more generalised abstraction that will include both mu'ei and ba'oi? >I did for a bit and then stopped; I just use {da'i} tricks now. >!!! just da'i or pada'i, su'oda'i, roda'i? how can you distinguish = between ba'oi and mu'ei then? >I don't find ba'oi useful at all. Just da'i. >but how can we distinguish two meanings? i just wanna some examples= how we can use da'i for each case.=A0If i can't use conditionals then i ca= nt speak this language.=A0Conditionals are the basics.=A0What are your solu= tions for su'omu'ei, romu'ei, mu'ei.=A0I can clearly see differences in the= ir meaning important when speaking.=A0Regardless the theory of alternate re= alities behind MUhEI I need words with such semantics.=A0ko sidju mi >So use mu'ei ? There's nothing wrong with them. su'o mu'ei is clear= ly ka'e. I have no idea what use ro mu'ei has; it looks totally pointless t= o me. Erm, as a bridi tag; as a sumti tag it's fine. Looking at http://www.= lojban.org/tiki/mu'ei , for "If the train breaks down I'll be late" is {da'= i mi lerci ri'a lo nu le trene cu spofu}=A0"If the train breaks down I migh= t be late" is not a structure I usually have to produce, but if I did I wou= ld just use cumki ; {lo nu mi lerci cu cumki lo nu le trene cu spofu} So having this absolution granted from lojbo nolraitru I started revising m= u'ei. Here is what I came up with. (if you can't see the image look here). We have two layers. One describes alternate (possible worlds). And it's {ka= 'e}. If you have balls of one color only there are no alternate worlds. i.e. onl= y bag in the middle has more than one output at M-level. Therefore I opine that mu'ei is not a good cmavo as it's trying to express = two levels and therefore two meaning at once. But cmavo should express one = meaning each (being more close to semantic prims). Strangely enough {pu'i} was out of consideration on mu'ei pages on lojban.o= rg wiki. That's why mu'ei scheme is not complete and comprehensive. Other issues including unsettled. romu'ei is absurd. bi'ai is described as naka'ena which in my scheme is equal to {ca'a}. But a= ctually in the examples from the wiki bi'ai is used more like {pu'i}. In an= y case it's meaning is covered by the existing cmavo. ba'oi has extra meaning of alternate world identical to This World up to th= e present. This meaning is yet to be defined using new cmavo if my criticis= m of mu'ei is accepted. da'i and va'o look like non-logical conditionals. Their meaning is out of m= y understanding. But I'm gonna use da'i more like Robin in those cases when= I'm not sure what alternate-world-cmavo to use or in order to reach ambigu= ity. ka'e is used more like an abbreviation of kakne. If the latter meaning of k= a'e is fixed we need to find another cmavo for that purpose (for A-level). naka'e has no cmavo for the output at M-level. Luckily naka'e is short enou= gh to be used on it's own. Conclusion. mu'ei is not needed. If you wanna describe potential i.e. alternate worlds = at A-level use naka'e, ka'e or naka'ena=3Dca'a. If in possible worlds some balls are black and some are white then it's ka'= e that can result either in nu'o or in pu'i. You can use all those cmavo as sumtcita as well which staisfies the need in= most conditional sentences=A0 (conditionals are sentences like "If I hadn't swum I would have been health= y" or similar). --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lo= jban/-/1AfwMNf6FKgJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --1009959307-405552628-1344209554=:36959 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No, trival= ent (and other multivalent) logic does not deal with possible worlds, it is= entirely cisworld, not transworld.  You could combine the two, allowi= ng multivalence in each possible world and perhaps even get some explanatio= ns of  one logic in terms of the other, e.g, that a sentence gets the = value 1 in a world just in case it got the value 2  in some world alte= rnate to that one.   But multivalent logics do not depend on such= notions, nor reflect them very well at all (the metatheorem just cited doe= sn't go over to a theorem very well).
"Possible worlds" co= vers a multitude of different systems, not all of which can be conveniently= brought into a single scheme, the Lewis series, say, or the slightly more = generous Kripke one, or the Prior tense-based sets.  Some things are common to all (possible worlds, I suppose, for one) but techniques app= ropriate in one area, temporal modalities, say, do not apply in deontic or = epistemic modalities nor in the various subjunctive realms: fiction, repres= entation, contrary-to-fact conditionals, etc. For one major example, the ro= le of the "real world" (the world of primary evaluation) in very different = in these, critical in some cases, irrelevant in others, one world among man= y in still others.  Similarly, the metrics which may be laid upon the = the world-connecting vectors, have a variety of different rules, ranging fr= om highly complex to non-existent.  The genesis of the possible worlds= is important in some cases, irrelevant (indeed, unaskable) in others. Lojb= an provides AT MOST a way of starting to talk in some of these ways, but no= thing like the a fully functioning language for any of them.

I am not sure whether Lojban has even a fully functional trivalent language, though I suspect that xorxes six unary func= tions and an appropriate understanding of the given connectives would permi= t us to build up something, a la Guzman.  But it would be, at best, a = very poor substitute for any possible world system or even the small practi= cal parts, like the various subjunctives.


From:<= /b> Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 5, 2012 12:16 P= M
Subject: [lojban] Re= vising mu'ei and CAhA once again. Possible worlds.

Continuation of http://www.lojban.org/tiki/mu= 'ei
Note:This topic should be analysed from the Trivalent logic p= oint of view as the latter also deals with Possible worlds.
But l= et's get started with more simple stuff.
mu'ei has always been a = problem for me. Although the wiki was simple in describing it I felt someth= ing incomplete or illogical there.

Luckily, Lojban= istan has some authority and one can always ask how others solve the same p= roblem.
Here is the log.
<gleki> Do you use mu'ei in rea= l life? Do you have any thoughts of making a more generalised abstraction t= hat will include both mu'ei and ba'oi?
<robin>I did = for a bit and then stopped; I just use {da'i} tricks now.
= <gleki>!!! just da'i or pada'i, su'oda'i, roda'i? how can you distinguish between ba'oi and mu'ei then?
<robin>I = don't find ba'oi useful at all. Just da'i.
<gleki>bu= t how can we distinguish two meanings? i just wanna some examples how we ca= n use da'i for each case. If i can't use conditionals then i ca= nt speak this language. Conditionals are the basics. <= i>What are your solutions for su'omu'ei, romu'ei, mu'ei. I can = clearly see differences in their meaning important when speaking. = Regardless the theory of alternate realities behind MUhEI I need words w= ith such semantics. ko sidju mi
<robin>S= o use mu'ei ? There's nothing wrong with them. su'o mu'ei is clearly ka'e. = I have no idea what use ro mu'ei has; it looks totally pointless to me. Erm= , as a bridi tag; as a sumti tag it's fine. Looking at http://www.lojban.or= g/tiki/mu'ei , for "If the train breaks down I'll be late" is {da'i mi lerci ri'a lo nu le trene cu spofu} "If the train breaks do= wn I might be late" is not a structure I usually have to produce, but if I = did I would just use cumki ; {lo nu mi lerci cu cumki lo nu le trene cu spo= fu}

So having this absolution gra= nted from lojbo nolraitru I started revising mu'ei.
Here is w= hat I came up with.
(if you can't see the image look here).

We have two layers. One describes alternate (possible wo= rlds). And it's {ka'e}.
If you have balls of one color only there= are no alternate worlds. i.e. only bag in the middle has more than one out= put at M-level.
Therefore I opine that mu'ei is not a good cmavo = as it's trying to express two levels and therefore two meaning at once. But= cmavo should express one meaning each (being more close to semantic prims)= .

Strangely enough {pu'i} was out of consideration= on mu'ei pages on lojban.= org wiki. That's why mu'ei scheme is not complete and comprehensive.

Other issues including unsettled.
r= omu'ei is absurd.
bi'ai is described as naka'ena which in my sche= me is equal to {ca'a}. But actually in the examples from the wiki bi'ai is = used more like {pu'i}. In any case it's meaning is covered by the existing cmavo.
ba'oi has extra meaning of alternate world identical to T= his World up to the present. This meaning is yet to be defined using new cm= avo if my criticism of mu'ei is accepted.
da'i and va'o look like= non-logical conditionals. Their meaning is out of my understanding. But I'= m gonna use da'i more like Robin in those cases when I'm not sure what alte= rnate-world-cmavo to use or in order to reach ambiguity.
ka'e is = used more like an abbreviation of kakne. If the latter meaning of ka'e is f= ixed we need to find another cmavo for that purpose (for A-level).
naka'e has no cmavo for the output at M-level. Luckily naka'e is short en= ough to be used on it's own.

Conclusion.
mu'ei is not needed. If you wanna describe potential i.e. alternate= worlds at A-level use naka'e, ka'e or naka'ena=3Dca'a.
If in pos= sible worlds some balls are black and some are white then it's ka'e that can result either in nu'o or in pu'i.
You can use all those= cmavo as sumtcita as well which staisfies the need in most conditional sen= tences 
(conditionals are sentences like "If I hadn't swum I= would have been healthy" or similar).
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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://= groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/1AfwMNf6FKgJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.


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