On Sun, Aug 5, 2012= at 5:32 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote= :

No, trivalent (and other= multivalent) logic does not deal with possible worlds, it is entirely cisw= orld, not transworld.=A0 You could combine the two, allowing multivalence i= n each possible world and perhaps even get some explanations of=A0 one logi= c in terms of the other, e.g, that a sentence gets the value 1 in a world j= ust in case it got the value 2=A0 in some world alternate to that one.=A0= =A0 But multivalent logics do not depend on such notions, nor reflect them = very well at all (the metatheorem just cited doesn't go over to a theor= em very well).

"Possible worlds" covers a multitude of different systems, n= ot all of which can be conveniently brought into a single scheme, the Lewis= series, say, or the slightly more generous Kripke one, or the Prior tense-= based sets.=A0 Some things are common to all (possible worlds, I suppose, for one) but techniques app= ropriate in one area, temporal modalities, say, do not apply in deontic or = epistemic modalities nor in the various subjunctive realms: fiction, repres= entation, contrary-to-fact conditionals, etc. For one major example, the ro= le of the "real world" (the world of primary evaluation) in very = different in these, critical in some cases, irrelevant in others, one world= among many in still others.=A0 Similarly, the metrics which may be laid up= on the the world-connecting vectors, have a variety of different rules, ran= ging from highly complex to non-existent.=A0 The genesis of the possible wo= rlds is important in some cases, irrelevant (indeed, unaskable) in others. = Lojban provides AT MOST a way of starting to talk in some of these ways, bu= t nothing like the a fully functioning language for any of them.

I am not sure whether Lojban has even a fully functional trivalent language, though I suspect that xorxes six unary func= tions and an appropriate understanding of the given connectives would permi= t us to build up something, a la Guzman.=A0 But it would be, at best, a ver= y poor substitute for any possible world system or even the small practical= parts, like the various subjunctives.

From: Gleki Arxokuna <<= a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.= name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@goog= legroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 5, 201= 2 12:16 PM
Subject: [loj= ban] Revising mu'ei and CAhA once again. Possible worlds.

Continuation of http://www.lojban.org/tiki/mu'ei
Note:Thi= s topic should be analysed from the Trivalent logic point of view as the la= tter also deals with Possible worlds.

But let's get started with more simple stuff.
mu'ei = has always been a problem for me. Although the wiki was simple in describin= g it I felt something incomplete or illogical there.

Luckily, Lojbanistan has some authority and one can always ask how oth= ers solve the same problem.
Here is the log.
<gleki> Do y= ou use mu'ei in real life? Do you have any thoughts of making a more ge= neralised abstraction that will include both mu'ei and ba'oi?
<robin>I did for a bit and then stopped; I just use {da'i= } tricks now.
<gleki>!!! just da'i or pada'i= , su'oda'i, roda'i? how can you distinguish between ba'oi and mu'ei then?
<rob= in>I don't find ba'oi useful at all. Just da'i.
<gleki>but how can we distinguish two meanings? i just wanna som= e examples how we can use da'i for each case.=A0If i can't u= se conditionals then i cant speak this language.=A0Conditionals are = the basics.=A0What are your solutions for su'omu'ei, romu= 9;ei, mu'ei.=A0I can clearly see differences in their meaning im= portant when speaking.=A0Regardless the theory of alternate realitie= s behind MUhEI I need words with such semantics.=A0ko sidju mi
<robin>So use mu'ei ? There's nothing wrong with them= . su'o mu'ei is clearly ka'e. I have no idea what use ro mu'= ;ei has; it looks totally pointless to me. Erm, as a bridi tag; as a sumti = tag it's fine. Looking at http://www.lojban.org/tiki/mu'ei , for "If= the train breaks down I'll be late" is {da'i mi lerci ri'a lo nu le trene cu spofu}=A0"If the train bre= aks down I might be late" is not a structure I usually have to produce= , but if I did I would just use cumki ; {lo nu mi lerci cu cumki lo nu le t= rene cu spofu}

So having this absolution granted from loj= bo nolraitru I started revising mu'ei.
Here is what I cam= e up with.
(if you can't see the image look here).

We have two layers. One describes alternate (possible worl= ds). And it's {ka'e}.

If you have balls of one color only there are no alternate worlds. i.e= . only bag in the middle has more than one output at M-level.
The= refore I opine that mu'ei is not a good cmavo as it's trying to exp= ress two levels and therefore two meaning at once. But cmavo should express= one meaning each (being more close to semantic prims).

Strangely enough {pu'i} was out of consideration on= mu'ei pages on lojban= .org wiki. That's why mu'ei scheme is not complete and comprehe= nsive.

Other issues including unsettled.
romu= 'ei is absurd.
bi'ai is described as naka'ena which i= n my scheme is equal to {ca'a}. But actually in the examples from the w= iki bi'ai is used more like {pu'i}. In any case it's meaning is= covered by the existing cmavo.
ba'oi has extra meaning of alternate world identical = to This World up to the present. This meaning is yet to be defined using ne= w cmavo if my criticism of mu'ei is accepted.
da'i and va= 'o look like non-logical conditionals. Their meaning is out of my under= standing. But I'm gonna use da'i more like Robin in those cases whe= n I'm not sure what alternate-world-cmavo to use or in order to reach a= mbiguity.

ka'e is used more like an abbreviation of kakne. If the latter mea= ning of ka'e is fixed we need to find another cmavo for that purpose (f= or A-level).
naka'e has no cmavo for the output at M-level. L= uckily naka'e is short enough to be used on it's own.

Conclusion.
mu'ei is not needed. I= f you wanna describe potential i.e. alternate worlds at A-level use naka= 9;e, ka'e or naka'ena=3Dca'a.
If in possible worlds s= ome balls are black and some are white then it's ka'e that can result either in nu'o or in pu'i.
You can use a= ll those cmavo as sumtcita as well which staisfies the need in most conditi= onal sentences=A0
(conditionals are sentences like "If I had= n't swum I would have been healthy" or similar).
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