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[98.138.90.67]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id ev10si2250415igc.2.2012.08.06.08.44.31; Mon, 06 Aug 2012 08:44:31 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.90.67 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.138.90.67; Received: from [98.138.90.57] by nm4.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Aug 2012 15:44:31 -0000 Received: from [68.142.200.221] by tm10.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Aug 2012 15:44:31 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.107] by t9.bullet.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Aug 2012 15:44:31 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1012.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Aug 2012 15:44:31 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 357736.88107.bm@omp1012.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 27383 invoked by uid 60001); 6 Aug 2012 15:44:31 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: yeOaCfgVM1lGCC4u3gCLQfX6UtyLbm9JFHzUi8lE9jOflBj HrlYOSN973osvDPLVgCqKq.i8UPPBoJ0aIAud.WqoPlDmjIafRqNYe615CZZ I6LCOezwfem1DLzpNmxuAsjD5FyHc.Y4v_QicghqqLZSaIFy1idJCscHaH43 avgZQiWMzuerqM4WXAFfv_h6P_ab30Tk.Mo8_..5Yh28685eh23878tPRZxK V86yAil9PbJmVdLI4eviTaWCpbFj8Ge10MU7eBSOGBs8Aewwa1Kj8loWEF42 Hblb7J9.G7MUD8nOx.9RDo6enkzAbdKpoFRfoQGPpLW4HhFLhWYVsRyuj7lx d8MzGUSXPRbNfUJXDRfA7.YNVzga6zCVSturdbwtPTNlyy8W9EHxV5kjyuS4 6pNE53kpiFP_M2h5xsx2I4KZZ9FFfHRBWW3Q_PLGcDyeW170hhFi3n.qctFl ngZe2JRgyDbC10qObOnZRSFWXmfzFjoqmvuNwoq_Z4S_Y93P3OSzzV4Stw94 QALBH0QBKLQi9pJQfjLw8hG9saaFR.4GImwU8emJzt4iacPwlAJlqDF0sI3w p1HFiqoKXl5THqrKbiaR_y4V.OyQ149B7aezeUHNfR.ccvBmubU_9n44AKo8 NUJEB.mP21m6iTfHMGll9pimywLQh1dlGUKUAnV3yHtbct6RGdPIVtAjJaIX 46J9NhUCO.MHowwxq5R2L063iwjjAegEz5pHfgjrBdQedEnxubnaNZfhL0EJ 8gHg.lwfWnTO_Bxgb Received: from [99.92.108.194] by web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 06 Aug 2012 08:44:30 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.120.356233 References: <20000625000846.27040.qmail@hotmail.com> <1344098888.48487.YahooMailNeo@web184404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <9fa1f123-4892-4da4-8f17-4c856a56f1ab@googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <1344267870.26140.YahooMailNeo@web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 08:44:30 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] RE:Trivalent Logics To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: <9fa1f123-4892-4da4-8f17-4c856a56f1ab@googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.90.67 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1789658926-909768130-1344267870=:26140" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --1789658926-909768130-1344267870=:26140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guzman's claim (not in the monograph so much) that Aymara is a language inv= ented by van Daniken gods is also at least suspect (there are other related= languages in the area, with all the expected diachronic connections). What problems a trivalent or other polyvalent logic will solve, if any, is = pretty much to the imagination of the person setting up the system and typi= cally guides his choices for which of 19,682 binary functions he picks for = OR, AND, and IF (and which of the 27 unary is NOT).=A0 I suppose the favori= te is future contingents, followed by other epistemic/causal puzzles.=A0 Th= e record of=A0 accepted success is limited (nil, I think), though some issu= es have been clarified a bit.=A0 As the cases suggest, various kinds of mod= al logics seem to offer better hope (though without much better success so = far). ________________________________ From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20 Sent: Monday, August 6, 2012 10:20 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] RE:Trivalent Logics =20 On Sunday, August 5, 2012 5:49:49 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: I'm not sure what the Aymara population is, but linguists -- including a nu= mber of native speakers of Aymara who have gone on to graduate degrees in l= inguistics -- agree that Guzman's interpretation of the data (much of which= they say he also has wrong) is incorrect. =A0In short, Aymara does not use= trivalent logic, though it does have a number of --to us -- unfamiliar epi= stemic modalities.=A0 If so the task to implement trivalent logic is no longer of utter importanc= e for me. I thought that the inventors of Aymara were much wiser. uinai they were not.=A0 ta'o=A0Why implementing this logic won't solve any problems? What can solve= them? Quaternary logic? Do you have any thoughts of how to implement it? >Sent from my iPad > >On Aug 5, 2012, at 3:20 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wr= ote: > > > >> >>On Saturday, August 4, 2012 8:48:08 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote: >>Yeah, with the unlikely exception of Aymara, it is hard to imagine what t= his would look like in practice. >>Why not? Millions of people use it while speaking the language that is hi= ghly naturalistic. >>Just relexing Aymara to Lojban should be quite easy. It's all the matter = of how to teach people to use new but better cmavo. >>=A0 >>=A0 Juggling even the six basics xorxes offers (or the minimal three) pro= bably pushes one's understanding pretty far, unless you have a very concret= e notion of what the third value is (and then you may be surprised at what = the system offers you in some cases).=A0 We seem to be better with fuzzy (b= ut let's don't get started on that!) than clear-cut triads or more when it = comes to dealing with the world. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>________________________________ >>> From: Jorge Llamb=EDas >>>To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20 >>>Sent: Saturday, August 4, 2012 11:26 AM >>>Subject: Re: [lojban] RE:Trivalent Logics >>>=20 >>>On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 10:43 AM, Gleki Arxokuna >>> wrote: >>>> doi xorxes xu do pu troci lo nu pilno lo cimei logji xusycmuma'o ca'o = lo nu >>>> tavla? >>> >>>.i no roi go'i >>> >>>mu'o mi'e xorxes >>> >>>--=20 >>>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s "lojban" group. >>>To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googleg= roup s.com. >>>For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group /lo= jban?hl=3Den. >>> >>> >>> >>> --=20 >>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. >>To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/ msg= /lojban/-/BrVEgpdpPDEJ. >>To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@ googleg= roups.com. >>For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. >> --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lo= jban/-/kp2wqSHdxZsJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --1789658926-909768130-1344267870=:26140 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Guzman's c= laim (not in the monograph so much) that Aymara is a language invented by v= an Daniken gods is also at least suspect (there are other related languages= in the area, with all the expected diachronic connections).
What problems a trivalent or other polyvalent logic will solve, if= any, is pretty much to the imagination of the person setting up the system= and typically guides his choices for which of 19,682 binary functions he p= icks for OR, AND, and IF (and which of the 27 unary is NOT).  I suppos= e the favorite is future contingents, followed by other epistemic/causal pu= zzles.  The record of  accepted success is limited (nil, I think)= , though some issues have been clarified a bit.  As the cases suggest,= various kinds of modal logics seem to offer better hope (though without much better success so far).


From: Gleki Ar= xokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 6, 2012 10:20 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] RE:Trivale= nt Logics



On Sunday, August 5, 2012 5:49:49 PM UTC+4= , clifford wrote:
=
I'm not sure what the Aymara population is, but linguists -- including= a number of native speakers of Aymara who have gone on to graduate degrees= in linguistics -- agree that Guzman's interpretation of the data (much of = which they say he also has wrong) is incorrect.  In short, Aymara does= not use trivalent logic, though it does have a number of --to us -- unfami= liar epistemic modalities. 
= If so the task to implement trivalent logic is no longer of utter importanc= e for me. I thought that the inventors of Aymara were much wiser.
uinai they were not. 
ta'o Why implementing this logic= won't solve any problems? What can solve them? Quaternary logic? Do you have any thoughts of how to implement it?

Sent from my iPad

On = Aug 5, 2012, at 3:20 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:



On Saturday, August 4, 2= 012 8:48:08 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:
Yea= h, with the unlikely exception of Aymara, it is hard to imagine what this w= ould look like in practice.
Why n= ot? Millions of people use it while speaking the language that is highly naturalistic.<= /div>
Just relexing Aymara to Lojban should be quite easy. It's all the= matter of how to teach people to use new but better cmavo.
 = ;
  Juggling even the six basi= cs xorxes offers (or the minimal three) probably pushes one's understanding= pretty far, unless you have a very concrete notion of what the third value= is (and then you may be surprised at what the system offers you in some ca= ses).  We seem to be better with fuzzy (but let's don't get started on= that!) than clear-cut triads or more when it comes to dealing with the wor= ld.

=
From: Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmai= l.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, August 4, 2012 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] RE:Trivalent = Logics

On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 10:43 AM, Gleki Arxokuna
<gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
> doi xorxes x= u do pu troci lo nu pilno lo cimei logji xusycmuma'o ca'o lo nu
> tav= la?

.i no roi go'i

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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To post to this group, send email to lojban@goo= glegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+= unsubscribe@googlegroup s.com.For more options, visit this group at http://groups.= google.com/group /lojban?hl=3Den.



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=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
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