Quaternary= is good, too; do join in.

= From: Jonathan Jones <= eyeonus@gmail.com>
To:<= /b> lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent= : Sunday, August 5, 2012 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Revising mu'ei and CAhA once ag= ain. Possible worlds.

I had no idea what any of you were talking about = until I realized this was a trinary discussion.

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 5:32 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com= > wrote:

No, tr= ivalent (and other multivalent) logic does not deal with possible worlds, i= t is entirely cisworld, not transworld. You could combine the two, al= lowing multivalence in each possible world and perhaps even get some explan= ations of one logic in terms of the other, e.g, that a sentence gets = the value 1 in a world just in case it got the value 2 in some world = alternate to that one. But multivalent logics do not depend on = such notions, nor reflect them very well at all (the metatheorem just cited= doesn't go over to a theorem very well).

"Possible worlds" covers a multitude of different systems, not all of = which can be conveniently brought into a single scheme, the Lewis series, s= ay, or the slightly more generous Kripke one, or the Prior tense-based sets= . Some things are common to all (possible worlds, I suppose, for one) but techniques app= ropriate in one area, temporal modalities, say, do not apply in deontic or = epistemic modalities nor in the various subjunctive realms: fiction, repres= entation, contrary-to-fact conditionals, etc. For one major example, the ro= le of the "real world" (the world of primary evaluation) in very different = in these, critical in some cases, irrelevant in others, one world among man= y in still others. Similarly, the metrics which may be laid upon the = the world-connecting vectors, have a variety of different rules, ranging fr= om highly complex to non-existent. The genesis of the possible worlds= is important in some cases, irrelevant (indeed, unaskable) in others. Lojb= an provides AT MOST a way of starting to talk in some of these ways, but no= thing like the a fully functioning language for any of them.

I am not sure whether Lojban has even a fully functional trivalent language, though I suspect that xorxes six unary func= tions and an appropriate understanding of the given connectives would permi= t us to build up something, a la Guzman. But it would be, at best, a = very poor substitute for any possible world system or even the small practi= cal parts, like the various subjunctives.

From: Gleki Arxokuna <= gleki.is.my.name@gmail.= com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 5, 20= 12 12:16 PM
Subject: [l= ojban] Revising mu'ei and CAhA once again. Possible worlds.

Continuation of http://www.lojban.org/tiki/mu%27ei
Note= :This topic should be analysed from the Trivalent logic point of view as th= e latter also deals with Possible worlds.

But let's get started with more simple stuff.
mu'ei has alwa= ys been a problem for me. Although the wiki was simple in describing it I f= elt something incomplete or illogical there.

Luckily, Lojbanistan has some authority and one can always ask how oth= ers solve the same problem.
Here is the log.
<gleki> Do = you use mu'ei in real life? Do you have any thoughts of making a more gener= alised abstraction that will include both mu'ei and ba'oi?

<robin>I did for a bit and then stopped; I just use {da'i} tr= icks now.
<gleki>!!! just da'i or pada'i, su'oda'i, = roda'i? how can you distinguish between ba'oi and mu'ei then?
<robin>I = don't find ba'oi useful at all. Just da'i.
<gleki>bu= t how can we distinguish two meanings? i just wanna some examples how we ca= n use da'i for each case. If i can't use conditionals then i ca= nt speak this language. Conditionals are the basics. <= i>What are your solutions for su'omu'ei, romu'ei, mu'ei. I can = clearly see differences in their meaning important when speaking. = Regardless the theory of alternate realities behind MUhEI I need words w= ith such semantics. ko sidju mi

<robin>So use mu'ei ? There's nothing wrong with them. su'o m= u'ei is clearly ka'e. I have no idea what use ro mu'ei has; it looks totall= y pointless to me. Erm, as a bridi tag; as a sumti tag it's fine. Looking a= t http://www.lojban.org/tiki/mu'ei , for "If the train breaks do= wn I'll be late" is {da'i mi lerci ri'a lo nu le trene cu spofu} "If the train breaks do= wn I might be late" is not a structure I usually have to produce, but if I = did I would just use cumki ; {lo nu mi lerci cu cumki lo nu le trene cu spo= fu}

So having this absolution granted from loj= bo nolraitru I started revising mu'ei.
Here is what I came up= with.
(if you can't see the image look here).

We have two layers. One describes alternate (possible wor= lds). And it's {ka'e}.

If you have balls of one color only there are no alternate worlds. i.e= . only bag in the middle has more than one output at M-level.
The= refore I opine that mu'ei is not a good cmavo as it's trying to express two= levels and therefore two meaning at once. But cmavo should express one mea= ning each (being more close to semantic prims).

Strangely enough {pu'i} was out of consideration on mu'= ei pages on lojban.org wiki. That's why mu'ei scheme is not complete and compreh= ensive.

Other issues including unsettled.
romu= 'ei is absurd.
bi'ai is described as naka'ena which in my scheme = is equal to {ca'a}. But actually in the examples from the wiki bi'ai is use= d more like {pu'i}. In any case it's meaning is covered by the existing cmavo.
ba'oi has extra meaning of alternate world identical to T= his World up to the present. This meaning is yet to be defined using new cm= avo if my criticism of mu'ei is accepted.
da'i and va'o look like= non-logical conditionals. Their meaning is out of my understanding. But I'= m gonna use da'i more like Robin in those cases when I'm not sure what alte= rnate-world-cmavo to use or in order to reach ambiguity.

ka'e is used more like an abbreviation of kakne. If the latter meaning= of ka'e is fixed we need to find another cmavo for that purpose (for A-lev= el).
naka'e has no cmavo for the output at M-level. Luckily naka'= e is short enough to be used on it's own.

Conclusion.
mu'ei is not needed. If yo= u wanna describe potential i.e. alternate worlds at A-level use naka'e, ka'= e or naka'ena=3Dca'a.
If in possible worlds some balls are black = and some are white then it's ka'e that can result either in nu'o or in pu'i.
You can use all those= cmavo as sumtcita as well which staisfies the need in most conditional sen= tences
(conditionals are sentences like "If I hadn't swum I= would have been healthy" or similar).
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://= groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/1AfwMNf6FKgJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegro= ups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.googl= e.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegro= ups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.googl= e.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.