Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]:38999)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDGmIeBBRoEWcG7Gg@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1SyvqG-00035i-Lo; Tue, 07 Aug 2012 19:17:59 -0700
Received: by yhoo21 with SMTP id o21sf270608yho.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Tue, 07 Aug 2012 19:17:42 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id
         :x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:message-id:date:from:reply-to
         :subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:precedence:mailing-list:list-id
         :x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=etihM1Dc5Q1bDgSczW2otX0csEL0yKkewvL0wUCmIx4=;
        b=XYa6Y4qIASLk8RvEI2upuWTfELKuFKm5+2lo1zZNORq4eVXngz4yS86u2Oyu/uMo57
         7DHA4Q/TbdvTg6Y6hC4d+az13iJ8v7ZHJvJ/WMafwUz61Ahi1nQ5nxW6cJxgvxBYjwS3
         koYdm3Q5vUNw6oQVu5FCgBkvMcqcw0rExkO+c=
Received: by 10.52.20.51 with SMTP id k19mr1901329vde.8.1344392262035;
        Tue, 07 Aug 2012 19:17:42 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.220.239.208 with SMTP id kx16ls917465vcb.8.gmail; Tue, 07 Aug
 2012 19:17:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.58.254.39 with SMTP id af7mr4939292ved.41.1344392261024;
        Tue, 07 Aug 2012 19:17:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.58.254.39 with SMTP id af7mr4939291ved.41.1344392261009;
        Tue, 07 Aug 2012 19:17:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from nm16.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (nm16.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com. [98.139.212.175])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y20si3263730vdd.0.2012.08.07.19.17.40
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Tue, 07 Aug 2012 19:17:41 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.212.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.139.212.175;
Received: from [98.139.212.148] by nm16.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Aug 2012 02:17:40 -0000
Received: from [68.142.194.243] by tm5.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Aug 2012 02:17:40 -0000
Received: from [66.94.237.99] by t1.bullet.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Aug 2012 02:17:40 -0000
Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1004.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Aug 2012 02:17:40 -0000
X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3
X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 202693.43175.bm@omp1004.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com
Received: (qmail 78233 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Aug 2012 02:17:39 -0000
X-YMail-OSG: Yg09YLEVM1msg1Tz.6IdrOHxs9Wum7VKOybQrMxRzLJwndQ
 xB.M57nYfP1.6V8TrzuF405DH31mjB6A2QaUl5njG3kHTXmjv.5JsJ74Kn7I
 03wRo1J.j_vvK_nVoTg3tL9NKHvfbKIXMTxVHM_ogLhroxCxJj7TGHwGy515
 6Rkz0Sh_z66dV15eEuwmohYG2OqMA28hHA5i0cAgUVF7NfvmS25q_glZz7mh
 .4D9WjKlSOoCHqx8wLnYH9w07S09eWXVE1d7RrgWWtNq5TnbkJ_jZZ.wZoDV
 fGRNxxms4JtMymex6O28lFgzCy83Xku_dbzaKwpfeivlZUzVm6yd4_3zO5_A
 iaLPE7cTD.W8vGyZjfSt76dRp1Y.xnoOjT3FMJXsvglI1wLY2MZSnCQth2iP
 wZzy5Eisw8r4Q32S3zZP2CfKCis7gTF61mlXG1H8i9HDQvofkarDK5PRg461
 WiRAstPepumdVT7D_URcWTv.uKztElRHUwsEMWD_refkQ9Sl16YtzAEUFKkn
 uuPmFFq5PhYtocD6ZjMBUmNGBF9GVX3wztnNtHpljinyHzA_jN4n8wfAyQ9C
 IlqYHPd1T1HfjsgK.kFK.JWFSrg9cGR3Jh9oYolkl0QhE
Received: from [99.92.108.194] by web184404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 07 Aug 2012 19:17:39 PDT
X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.120.356233
References: <e09a669e-9fdd-47c1-968a-014ec72e933e@googlegroups.com> <CAO7tK2d2C1bJVpX+-marO=d2k2eo6GzrrBg9nw5Mf8MQgXtuaQ@mail.gmail.com> <1a5f9ca9-75f1-409b-868c-5b7c3e6a9674@googlegroups.com> <CAO7tK2fWjZzZtt1MQPNjsEhaT5J7HWtRp10SR42+VwrcQ4hU7Q@mail.gmail.com> <1059afae-0f80-41eb-9a0f-e95bca0179ac@googlegroups.com> <CAO7tK2dU2M+YfLKFYQEs7=WgsdmiD4EBtu504zc8gDagLahLdg@mail.gmail.com> <b2fbee61-1aa5-4c65-ad1f-778e1e4093db@googlegroups.com> <1344353668.22980.YahooMailNeo@web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <318ca405-4913-4081-9642-222bdfee3958@googlegroups.com> <1344375991.99278.YahooMailNeo@web184406.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <CAO7tK2d7QofgaGA6zq7rKJtUwfnNy5jX25wE7jhRVbFB=0Gm9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1344392259.77407.YahooMailNeo@web184404.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 19:17:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Revising mu'ei and CAhA once again. Possible worlds.
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAO7tK2d7QofgaGA6zq7rKJtUwfnNy5jX25wE7jhRVbFB=0Gm9Q@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates
 98.139.212.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass
 (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-420974808-1016072131-1344392259=:77407"
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

---420974808-1016072131-1344392259=:77407
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

So, the logic of "probably" but not of probability.=A0 Reasonable and inter=
esting to tie in.



________________________________
 From: Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, August 7, 2012 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Revising mu'ei and CAhA once again. Possible worlds.
=20
On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 6:46 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrot=
e:
>
> mu'ei seems a fairly pointless notion for modalities, since the count of
> possible worlds is rarely (if ever) a factor.

You don't need a count for the modals, just the basic quantifiers:

su'o mu'ei =3D ka'e =3D na bi'ai na
no mu'ei =3D na ka'e =3D bi'ai na
ro mu'ei =3D bi'ai =3D na ka'e na
me'i mu'ei =3D na bi'ai =3D ka'e na

"mu'ei" may be pointless here in the sense that we already have
"ka'e", which is simpler. If we had had "bi'ai" from the start,
"mu'ei" would have been even less necessary. But it's still nice to
have the relationship between them clearly spelled out.

> It won't help a lot for
> probability, either, since it is relative sizes, not absolute one that pl=
ay
> there (and the apparatus of logic, per se, is not up to messing with that=
.

But that's what the so'V series is for, relative quantifiers, just
what's needed for (vague, impressionistic) probabilities. When you say
that something is true in most possible worlds (of the relevant set),
you are saying that it is probable, so you can go from "so'u mu'ei"
(possible but highly ulikely) to "so'a mu'ei" (almost but not quite
certain). You don't really need a fully specified metric for these
words to be useful.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.


---420974808-1016072131-1344392259=:77407
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>So, the lo=
gic of "probably" but not of probability.&nbsp; Reasonable and interesting =
to tie in.</span></div><div><br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family: times ne=
w roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-fami=
ly: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D=
"ltr"> <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <hr size=3D"1">  <b><span style=3D"=
font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Jorge Llamb=EDas &lt;jjllambias@gmail.c=
om&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@goog=
legroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tu=
esday, August 7, 2012 6:52 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sub=
ject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] Revising mu'ei and CAhA once again. Possible =
worlds.<br> </font> </div> <br>
On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 6:46 PM, John E Clifford &lt;<a ymailto=3D"mailto:ka=
li9putra@yahoo.com" href=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com">kali9putra@yahoo.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&gt; mu'ei seems a fairly pointless notion for=
 modalities, since the count of<br>&gt; possible worlds is rarely (if ever)=
 a factor.<br><br>You don't need a count for the modals, just the basic qua=
ntifiers:<br><br>su'o mu'ei =3D ka'e =3D na bi'ai na<br>no mu'ei =3D na ka'=
e =3D bi'ai na<br>ro mu'ei =3D bi'ai =3D na ka'e na<br>me'i mu'ei =3D na bi=
'ai =3D ka'e na<br><br>"mu'ei" may be pointless here in the sense that we a=
lready have<br>"ka'e", which is simpler. If we had had "bi'ai" from the sta=
rt,<br>"mu'ei" would have been even less necessary. But it's still nice to<=
br>have the relationship between them clearly spelled out.<br><br>&gt; It w=
on't help a lot for<br>&gt; probability, either, since it is relative sizes=
, not absolute one that play<br>&gt; there (and the apparatus of logic, per=
 se, is not
 up to messing with that.<br><br>But that's what the so'V series is for, re=
lative quantifiers, just<br>what's needed for (vague, impressionistic) prob=
abilities. When you say<br>that something is true in most possible worlds (=
of the relevant set),<br>you are saying that it is probable, so you can go =
from "so'u mu'ei"<br>(possible but highly ulikely) to "so'a mu'ei" (almost =
but not quite<br>certain). You don't really need a fully specified metric f=
or these<br>words to be useful.<br><br>mu'o mi'e xorxes<br><br>-- <br>You r=
eceived this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojba=
n" group.<br>To post to this group, send email to <a ymailto=3D"mailto:lojb=
an@googlegroups.com" href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com">lojban@googleg=
roups.com</a>.<br>To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+<a y=
mailto=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com" href=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@g=
ooglegroups.com">unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>For more options,
 visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.<br><br>=
<br><br> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.<br />



---420974808-1016072131-1344392259=:77407--