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Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 03:45:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Revising mu'ei and CAhA once again. Possible worlds.
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On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 2:34:44 AM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:
>
> On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Gleki Arxokuna 
> <gleki.is...@gmail.com <javascript:>> wrote: 
> > 
> > OK. If no other criticism I'll correct it and post it to lojban.orgwiki. 
>
> Strictly speaking, "ka'e" only says that the bag contains black balls. 
> It doesn't say whether it also contains white balls or not, although 
> pragmatically one expects that it will, just as when someone says 
> "some" one pragmatically expects "but not all" to be true as well. 
>
> Similarly "ka'e na" would say that the bag contains white ball, saying 
> nothing about whether it contains black ones as well. 
>
> In order to say that it contains both black and white balls you may 
> need something like "su'opame'iro mu'ei", "in some but not all 
> worlds". "May or may not", as opposed to just "may". 
>
Indeed. That's what I still might like.
If {ka'e} = {su'opame'iro mu'ei} then the scheme will get symmetry.
{su'opame'iro mu'ei} stretches across the scale not touching it's borders.
If {su'opame'iro mu'ei} = {ka'e} then {ka'ena} and {ka'e} are the same. 
They differ probably in accenting either the presense of white or black 
balls respectively. So "I could sleep"="I could be awake" as we don't 
specify what is more likely. We just state something in between {bi'aina} 
and {bi'ai}.

In a passage to the limit {su'opame'iro mu'ei} becomes equal to either 
{bi'ai} or {bi'aina}.

But if we assume that {ka'e}={su'o mu'ei} then in some cases it can be 
equal to {bi'ai} which is nonsense.
"I could swim" doesn't imply that "I necessarily swim". So stronlgy believe 
that {ka'e} must not include the case of {bi'ai} and {bi'ai na}.


> I'd put "bi'ai" at the same level as "ka'e", it's not really about 
> materialization. That the ball picked is black is just a consequence 
> of all of them being black in that bag, so of course the one that 
> materializes will be as well, but "bi'ai" has nothing to do with the 
> materialization itself. Similarly it's not all that relevant to "na 
> ka'e" that the ball picked is white, it's just a consequence of all of 
> them being white in that bag. 
>
> > Are there still other voices for mu'ei? 
>
> "mu'ei" allows a more fine grained description of the contents of the 
> bags, "so'u mu'ei", "so'o mu'ei", "so'i mu'ei", "so'e mu'ei", "so'a 
> mu'ei", "du'e mu'ei", "rau mu'ei", "mo'a mu'ei". 
>
> mu'o mi'e xorxes 
>

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<br><br>On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 2:34:44 AM UTC+4, xorxes wrote:<blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left:=
 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Gleki A=
rxokuna
<br>&lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"=
mI9nm7qF3NwJ">gleki.is...@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; OK. If no other criticism I'll correct it and post it to <a href=
=3D"http://lojban.org" target=3D"_blank">lojban.org</a> wiki.
<br>
<br>Strictly speaking, "ka'e" only says that the bag contains black balls.
<br>It doesn't say whether it also contains white balls or not, although
<br>pragmatically one expects that it will, just as when someone says
<br>"some" one pragmatically expects "but not all" to be true as well.
<br>
<br>Similarly "ka'e na" would say that the bag contains white ball, saying
<br>nothing about whether it contains black ones as well.
<br>
<br>In order to say that it contains both black and white balls you may
<br>need something like "su'opame'iro mu'ei", "in some but not all
<br>worlds". "May or may not", as opposed to just "may".
<br></blockquote><div>Indeed. That's what I still might like.</div><div>If =
{ka'e} =3D {su'opame'iro mu'ei} then the scheme will get symmetry.</div><di=
v>{su'opame'iro mu'ei} stretches across the scale not touching it's borders=
.</div><div>If {su'opame'iro mu'ei} =3D {ka'e} then {ka'ena} and {ka'e} are=
 the same. They differ probably in accenting either the presense of white o=
r black balls respectively. So "I could sleep"=3D"I could be awake" as we d=
on't specify what is more likely. We just state something in between {bi'ai=
na} and {bi'ai}.</div><div><br></div><div>In a passage to the limit {su'opa=
me'iro mu'ei} becomes equal to either {bi'ai} or {bi'aina}.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>But if we assume that {ka'e}=3D{su'o mu'ei} then in some cases it=
 can be equal to {bi'ai} which is nonsense.</div><div>"I could swim" doesn'=
t imply that "I necessarily swim". So stronlgy believe that {ka'e} must not=
 include the case of {bi'ai} and {bi'ai na}.</div><div><br></div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: =
1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>I'd put "bi'ai" at the same level as "ka'e", it's not really about
<br>materialization. That the ball picked is black is just a consequence
<br>of all of them being black in that bag, so of course the one that
<br>materializes will be as well, but "bi'ai" has nothing to do with the
<br>materialization itself. Similarly it's not all that relevant to "na
<br>ka'e" that the ball picked is white, it's just a consequence of all of
<br>them being white in that bag.
<br>
<br>&gt; Are there still other voices for mu'ei?
<br>
<br>"mu'ei" allows a more fine grained description of the contents of the
<br>bags, "so'u mu'ei", "so'o mu'ei", "so'i mu'ei", "so'e mu'ei", "so'a
<br>mu'ei", "du'e mu'ei", "rau mu'ei", "mo'a mu'ei".
<br>
<br>mu'o mi'e xorxes
<br></blockquote>

<p></p>

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