{ni'i} and= {va'o} are new to this discussion and seem to be foreign to it. {ni'= i} indicates that the marked statement follows logically (from the precedin= g, usually) and can take the name of a logic to be more specific (default a= mong the all unnamed possibilities to standard bivalent logic). Nothi= ng overt to do with necessity or possibility here, though, if "follows" mea= ns "by a valid inference", the marked sentence must be true if all the prem= ises are. This is thus not about the necessity of the marked sentence= but only about the relation. This is peripherally related to the mod= als, but obviously closer to various other "because"s.

{va'o} is even more remote, forming part of a complex predicat= e, indicating that the core predicate is active when the event {va'o} introduces occurs. Nothing is said about whether the core event migh= t occur otherwise or whether the core event always accompanies the conditio= n. So, this relates to even {ganai ... gi ...} in no particular way, = all possibilities -- except that on an occasion the two coincided -- are po= ssible. In short, this does not belong in the same semantic domain as the c= onnective, and certainly not of the modals.

From: Gl= eki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2012 12:08 AM<= br> Subject: Re: [lojban] Revising mu'= ei and CAhA once again. Possible worlds.

On Thursday, August 9, 2012 2:54:00 AM UT= C+4, xorxes wrote:

On = Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 7:24 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjlla...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 1:35 AM, Gleki Arxokuna
> <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wr= ote:
>>
>> anyway, what is in your opinion the difference between {pu'i} = and {ca'a}?
[...]
> That leaves two interesting meanings without a simple form, that w= e
> can assign to "pu'i" and "nu'o":
>
> ka'e na je ca'a =3D pu'i
> ka'e je na ca'a =3D nu'o
>
> pu'i: "actually, but not necessarily" or "actually, but possibly n= ot"
> nu'o: "actually not but possibly" or "actually not, but not necess= arily not"

I forgot to mention that this corresponds well with your diagrams:
"pu'i" is a black ball that comes from a bag also containing white
balls, and "nu'o is a white ball that comes from a bag also containing
black balls, so they make reference both to the ball and the bag,
while "ca'a" is just a black ball, and "ka'e" is just a bag containg
black balls.

Your scheme is excellent, doi xorxes. Yes, there is n= ot much difference between your scheme and mine.

Probably, becaus= e I based mine on your notes in lojban.org wiki pages on mu'ei, conditionals and CAhA :-)

The wiki doesn't mention {pu'i}. That's why {ca'a} is

http://www.lojban.org/tiki/''ca'ai'',+''ka'ei''+and+''nu'oi',+and+''na= u'a''

not defined correctly (is it {ka'e je ca'a} o= r {ka'e na je ca'a}?).

But your new scheme is pretty clear.

I wish we could add {da'i} to this scheme.

Anyway, I'm sure = that redefining CAhA as xorxes just suggested is a must.

I don't know how to explain my scheme better

but the short= est version of it would be

A-level. {ka'e}

M-level. {nu'o,= pu'i}

F-level. {ca'a}

Other topics relat= ing to conditionals are:

1. Relation between {ni'i} and {ganai ..= . gi}. Needs to be clarified. What are your thoughts, John?

2. {v= a'o} which as wiki mentions is more vague and therefore powerful than {gana= i ...gi}.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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