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Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 03:22:13 -0600
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Direction of Rotation
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
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On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 3:08 AM, Escape Landsome <escaaape@gmail.com> wrote:

> .
>
> No matter however precise one is, one cannot define the direction of
> rotation of a spinning object without giving an arbitrary (or a
> "cultural") reference frame.  (Viz, the sun, a clock, some move with
> his right hand, and so on).
>
> The reason for this is geometrical and nearly metaphysical : it is a
> well-known problem of epistemology, which was first noted by Kant in
> his Critique of Pure Reason (in Transcendental Aesthetics), then also
> noted by Lewis Carroll and Wittgenstein.
>
> There's nothing in the pure 3d-euclidian geometry that can induce
> something such as a "clockwise" or "counter-colckwise" movement, since
> there is no arbitrary preference to stipulate the x, y and z-vectors.
>
> Thus, the only thing you can say is that some determinante has value
> +1 or -1, and that some rotations share the same value (though you
> cannot say which one without arbitrary), and others share opposite
> values.
>
> This is such set that, were we bound to communicate with an alien race
> in a parallel universe which we could not visit, but only speak about
> it, we would have no clue whether some movement would be clockwise or
> counterclockwise, and indeed, it is even the case that it would make
> no sense at all.
>
> Thus, the only convincing way to define the direction of rotation is
> to culturally bind it to some famous move, e.g. the move of the hands
> of some clock, for instance.


I disagree with nearly the entire statement.

Obviously a point of reference must be established, however, it is not true
that such points can only be arbitrary or "cultural" in nature. For one
thing, "cultural" is most certainly not a given. For a great, great many
things, the "top" of the thing is obvious, and in those situations the
point of reference is as well. Tops, humans, cars, planes, buildings,
bottles,.... For other things in which the top is not so obvious (Celestial
bodies such as Earth, other spherical objects, um...) then some arbitrary
point is assigned- consistently.

If we were to communicate with an alien race, it stands to reason that we
would not have the same words for concepts. That much is obvious just
because we don't have the same words for concepts amongst /our own kind/.
However, the concept itself- especially regarding universal truths, of
which rotation is certainly numbered- will certainly exist.

If it is possible to describe rotational motion and the direction thereof
in purely mathematical terms, and I'm sure it is, then regardless of any
differences between us and them, we can communicate the meaning of
"clockwise". "Green", on the other hand, might be an insurmountable
challenge.

-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 3:08 AM, Escape Landsome=
 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:escaaape@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">escaaape@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex">
.<br>
<br>
No matter however precise one is, one cannot define the direction of<br>
rotation of a spinning object without giving an arbitrary (or a<br>
&quot;cultural&quot;) reference frame. =A0(Viz, the sun, a clock, some move=
 with<br>
his right hand, and so on).<br>
<br>
The reason for this is geometrical and nearly metaphysical : it is a<br>
well-known problem of epistemology, which was first noted by Kant in<br>
his Critique of Pure Reason (in Transcendental Aesthetics), then also<br>
noted by Lewis Carroll and Wittgenstein.<br>
<br>
There&#39;s nothing in the pure 3d-euclidian geometry that can induce<br>
something such as a &quot;clockwise&quot; or &quot;counter-colckwise&quot; =
movement, since<br>
there is no arbitrary preference to stipulate the x, y and z-vectors.<br>
<br>
Thus, the only thing you can say is that some determinante has value<br>
+1 or -1, and that some rotations share the same value (though you<br>
cannot say which one without arbitrary), and others share opposite<br>
values.<br>
<br>
This is such set that, were we bound to communicate with an alien race<br>
in a parallel universe which we could not visit, but only speak about<br>
it, we would have no clue whether some movement would be clockwise or<br>
counterclockwise, and indeed, it is even the case that it would make<br>
no sense at all.<br>
<br>
Thus, the only convincing way to define the direction of rotation is<br>
to culturally bind it to some famous move, e.g. the move of the hands<br>
of some clock, for instance.</blockquote></div><br>I disagree with nearly t=
he entire statement.<br><br>Obviously a point of reference must be establis=
hed, however, it is not true that such points can only be arbitrary or &quo=
t;cultural&quot; in nature. For one thing, &quot;cultural&quot; is most cer=
tainly not a given. For a great, great many things, the &quot;top&quot; of =
the thing is obvious, and in those situations the point of reference is as =
well. Tops, humans, cars, planes, buildings, bottles,.... For other things =
in which the top is not so obvious (Celestial bodies such as Earth, other s=
pherical objects, um...) then some arbitrary point is assigned- consistentl=
y.<br>
<br>If we were to communicate with an alien race, it stands to reason that =
we would not have the same words for concepts. That much is obvious just be=
cause we don&#39;t have the same words for concepts amongst /our own kind/.=
 However, the concept itself- especially regarding universal truths, of whi=
ch rotation is certainly numbered- will certainly exist.<br>
<br>If it is possible to describe rotational motion and the direction there=
of in purely mathematical terms, and I&#39;m sure it is, then regardless of=
 any differences between us and them, we can communicate the meaning of &qu=
ot;clockwise&quot;. &quot;Green&quot;, on the other hand, might be an insur=
mountable challenge.<br clear=3D"all">
<br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo piln=
o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Lu=
ke, I am your father. :D )<br><br>

<p></p>

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