Received: from mail-qc0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]:39512) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1SzlqM-0004Ar-UL; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 02:49:33 -0700 Received: by qcac11 with SMTP id c11sf1483170qca.16 for ; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 02:49:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=P+OpogKOk2IV9NYhUMZRNqWVfW1Q8hLAo/F/UVoBdzw=; b=GZhHoHNasUKyIoemj8FaoDcqu0yn6O7YUOcxkd7G4R0xoHOZ2daPUtpB+HzYxVpUX0 e0Zxb0DPRbqT0n6vvS24GiGNVDXb4gL5GkxJwIiDhOC/VCfVJESEFX6PfvH9pHPv8onP kmrT3/cGCGsLc507bQHRfG8UuL16XMPwYcc5I= Received: by 10.52.66.44 with SMTP id c12mr246337vdt.19.1344592156152; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 02:49:16 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.157.82 with SMTP id a18ls2985355vcx.3.gmail; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 02:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.71.177 with SMTP id w17mr924793vdu.8.1344592155660; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 02:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.71.177 with SMTP id w17mr924792vdu.8.1344592155645; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 02:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vb0-f46.google.com (mail-vb0-f46.google.com [209.85.212.46]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y4si714705vds.2.2012.08.10.02.49.15 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 10 Aug 2012 02:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.46 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.46; Received: by vbbff1 with SMTP id ff1so934742vbb.19 for ; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 02:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.35.15 with SMTP id d15mr1710958vdj.128.1344592155515; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 02:49:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.58.252.104 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Aug 2012 02:48:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References:

<201aced6-3e11-408d-b3ec-c31d042519c7@googlegroups.com> <50eeeab2-c661-4c30-8cda-2f9ddb8767de@googlegroups.com>

<4bdee803-3d24-474b-bf12-ced2d730960a@googlegroups.com>

From: ".arpis." Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 05:48:55 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Direction of Rotation To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.46 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / Positive being counterclockwise as per mathematical convention. On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 5:22 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 3:08 AM, Escape Landsome wrote: >> >> . >> >> No matter however precise one is, one cannot define the direction of >> rotation of a spinning object without giving an arbitrary (or a >> "cultural") reference frame. (Viz, the sun, a clock, some move with >> his right hand, and so on). >> >> The reason for this is geometrical and nearly metaphysical : it is a >> well-known problem of epistemology, which was first noted by Kant in >> his Critique of Pure Reason (in Transcendental Aesthetics), then also >> noted by Lewis Carroll and Wittgenstein. >> >> There's nothing in the pure 3d-euclidian geometry that can induce >> something such as a "clockwise" or "counter-colckwise" movement, since >> there is no arbitrary preference to stipulate the x, y and z-vectors. >> >> Thus, the only thing you can say is that some determinante has value >> +1 or -1, and that some rotations share the same value (though you >> cannot say which one without arbitrary), and others share opposite >> values. >> >> This is such set that, were we bound to communicate with an alien race >> in a parallel universe which we could not visit, but only speak about >> it, we would have no clue whether some movement would be clockwise or >> counterclockwise, and indeed, it is even the case that it would make >> no sense at all. >> >> Thus, the only convincing way to define the direction of rotation is >> to culturally bind it to some famous move, e.g. the move of the hands >> of some clock, for instance. > > > I disagree with nearly the entire statement. > > Obviously a point of reference must be established, however, it is not true > that such points can only be arbitrary or "cultural" in nature. For one > thing, "cultural" is most certainly not a given. For a great, great many > things, the "top" of the thing is obvious, and in those situations the point > of reference is as well. Tops, humans, cars, planes, buildings, bottles,.... > For other things in which the top is not so obvious (Celestial bodies such > as Earth, other spherical objects, um...) then some arbitrary point is > assigned- consistently. > > If we were to communicate with an alien race, it stands to reason that we > would not have the same words for concepts. That much is obvious just > because we don't have the same words for concepts amongst /our own kind/. > However, the concept itself- especially regarding universal truths, of which > rotation is certainly numbered- will certainly exist. > > If it is possible to describe rotational motion and the direction thereof in > purely mathematical terms, and I'm sure it is, then regardless of any > differences between us and them, we can communicate the meaning of > "clockwise". "Green", on the other hand, might be an insurmountable > challenge. > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- mu'o mi'e .arpis. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.