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Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 03:08:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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Subject: [lojban] The global problem of mirror paired predicates
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There are several pairs of predicates that can be expressed in a different 
way.
1. left - right
2. south - north
3. east - west
4. female - male
5. white - black
6. expensive - cheap
7. healthy - ill
8. good - bad

Some conlangs like Esperanto have only one root for each pair and use 
prefixes (e.g. "anti-") to express the second member of the set.
So 
left = anti-right
ill =  anti-healthy

or
patro - father
patrino - mother (suffix -in- for females)

Ithkuil employs a different approach. It uses two affixes, something like 
"plus" and "minus" to determine where on the scale we are present.
so e.g. we have a root for "good/bad" (let it be ROOT1) and for 
 "left-right" (let it be ROOT2) and mark them with prefixes.

good = plus-ROOT1
bad = minus-ROOT2
right = plus-ROOT1
left = minus-ROOT2

If such policy applied in Lojbanistan left-handed people would definitely 
leave the community as "minus" prefix is associated both with "bad" and 
"left hand".
Somehow we must choose what is positive and what is negative.
Therefore I state that
*AFFIX POLICY FOR SCALE PREDICATE IN ESPERANTO AND ITHKUIL IS NOT 
CULTURALLY NEUTRAL.*
The only way to be culturally neutral is the policy of many natural 
languages, i.e. having two separate words for each member of the pair.
In Lojban we have {zunle - pritu}, {bemro - snanu} etc.
Note that even in Esperanto separate root appeared for cheap instead of 
just "anti-expensive" which proves that such policy is naturalistic.

(This message appeared after discussing "clockwise" and "counterclockwise" 
concepts in a separate topic that in my opinion also deserve separate 
words).

Other solutions are culturally non-neutral.
Almost every person belongs  to some social minority: left-handed minority, 
sexual minorities, ethnic minorities. But together they constitute MAJORITY 
of the population.

In other words only the current policy of Lojban is best.
Yes, two separate words instead of one+affix is the cost of such neutrality.
(If you wanna be non-neutral please use {tolpritu} instead of {zunle}, it's 
absolutely not a problem).




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There are several pairs of predicates that can be expressed in a different =
way.<div>1. left - right</div><div>2. south - north</div><div>3. east - wes=
t</div><div>4. female - male</div><div>5. white - black</div><div>6. expens=
ive - cheap</div><div>7. healthy - ill</div><div>8. good - bad</div><div><b=
r></div><div>Some conlangs like Esperanto have only one root for each pair =
and use prefixes (e.g. "anti-") to express the second member of the set.</d=
iv><div>So&nbsp;</div><div>left =3D anti-right</div><div>ill =3D &nbsp;anti=
-healthy</div><div><br></div><div>or</div><div>patro - father</div><div>pat=
rino - mother (suffix -in- for females)</div><div><br></div><div>Ithkuil em=
ploys a different approach. It uses two affixes, something like "plus" and =
"minus" to determine where on the scale we are present.</div><div>so e.g. w=
e have a root for "good/bad" (let it be ROOT1) and for &nbsp;"left-right" (=
let it be ROOT2) and mark them with prefixes.</div><div><br></div><div>good=
 =3D plus-ROOT1</div><div>bad =3D minus-ROOT2</div><div>right =3D plus-ROOT=
1</div><div>left =3D minus-ROOT2</div><div><br></div><div>If such policy ap=
plied in Lojbanistan left-handed people would definitely leave the communit=
y as "minus" prefix is associated both with "bad" and "left hand".</div><di=
v>Somehow we must choose what is positive and what is negative.</div><div>T=
herefore I state that</div><div><b>AFFIX POLICY FOR SCALE PREDICATE IN ESPE=
RANTO AND ITHKUIL IS NOT CULTURALLY NEUTRAL.</b></div><div>The only way to =
be culturally neutral is the policy of many natural languages, i.e. having =
two separate words for each member of the pair.</div><div>In Lojban we have=
 {zunle - pritu}, {bemro - snanu} etc.</div><div>Note that even in Esperant=
o separate root appeared for cheap instead of just "anti-expensive" which p=
roves that such policy is naturalistic.</div><div><br></div><div>(This mess=
age appeared after discussing "clockwise" and "counterclockwise" concepts i=
n a separate topic that in my opinion also deserve separate words).</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Other solutions are culturally non-neutral.</div><div>Alm=
ost every person belongs &nbsp;to some social minority: left-handed minorit=
y, sexual minorities, ethnic minorities. But together they constitute MAJOR=
ITY of the population.</div><div><br></div><div>In other words only the cur=
rent policy of Lojban is best.</div><div>Yes, two separate words instead of=
 one+affix is the cost of such neutrality.</div><div>(If you wanna be non-n=
eutral please use {tolpritu} instead of {zunle}, it's absolutely not a prob=
lem).</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div>

<p></p>

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