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Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 05:23:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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Subject: [lojban] Re: The global problem of mirror paired predicates
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Sorry, there was a mistake.
Correct text:

good = plus-ROOT1
bad = minus-ROOT1

right = plus-ROOT2
left = minus-ROOT2

On Friday, August 10, 2012 2:08:17 PM UTC+4, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
>
> There are several pairs of predicates that can be expressed in a different 
> way.
> 1. left - right
> 2. south - north
> 3. east - west
> 4. female - male
> 5. white - black
> 6. expensive - cheap
> 7. healthy - ill
> 8. good - bad
>
> Some conlangs like Esperanto have only one root for each pair and use 
> prefixes (e.g. "anti-") to express the second member of the set.
> So 
> left = anti-right
> ill =  anti-healthy
>
> or
> patro - father
> patrino - mother (suffix -in- for females)
>
> Ithkuil employs a different approach. It uses two affixes, something like 
> "plus" and "minus" to determine where on the scale we are present.
> so e.g. we have a root for "good/bad" (let it be ROOT1) and for 
>  "left-right" (let it be ROOT2) and mark them with prefixes.
>
> good = plus-ROOT1
> bad = minus-ROOT2
> right = plus-ROOT1
> left = minus-ROOT2
>
> If such policy applied in Lojbanistan left-handed people would definitely 
> leave the community as "minus" prefix is associated both with "bad" and 
> "left hand".
> Somehow we must choose what is positive and what is negative.
> Therefore I state that
> *AFFIX POLICY FOR SCALE PREDICATE IN ESPERANTO AND ITHKUIL IS NOT 
> CULTURALLY NEUTRAL.*
> The only way to be culturally neutral is the policy of many natural 
> languages, i.e. having two separate words for each member of the pair.
> In Lojban we have {zunle - pritu}, {bemro - snanu} etc.
> Note that even in Esperanto separate root appeared for cheap instead of 
> just "anti-expensive" which proves that such policy is naturalistic.
>
> (This message appeared after discussing "clockwise" and "counterclockwise" 
> concepts in a separate topic that in my opinion also deserve separate 
> words).
>
> Other solutions are culturally non-neutral.
> Almost every person belongs  to some social minority: left-handed 
> minority, sexual minorities, ethnic minorities. But together they 
> constitute MAJORITY of the population.
>
> In other words only the current policy of Lojban is best.
> Yes, two separate words instead of one+affix is the cost of such 
> neutrality.
> (If you wanna be non-neutral please use {tolpritu} instead of {zunle}, 
> it's absolutely not a problem).
>
>
>
>
>

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Sorry, there was a mistake.<div>Correct text:</div><div><br></div><div><div=
>good =3D plus-ROOT1</div><div>bad =3D minus-ROOT1</div><div><br></div><div=
>right =3D plus-ROOT2</div><div>left =3D minus-ROOT2</div><div><br></div>On=
 Friday, August 10, 2012 2:08:17 PM UTC+4, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:<blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">There are several pairs of predicates tha=
t can be expressed in a different way.<div>1. left - right</div><div>2. sou=
th - north</div><div>3. east - west</div><div>4. female - male</div><div>5.=
 white - black</div><div>6. expensive - cheap</div><div>7. healthy - ill</d=
iv><div>8. good - bad</div><div><br></div><div>Some conlangs like Esperanto=
 have only one root for each pair and use prefixes (e.g. "anti-") to expres=
s the second member of the set.</div><div>So&nbsp;</div><div>left =3D anti-=
right</div><div>ill =3D &nbsp;anti-healthy</div><div><br></div><div>or</div=
><div>patro - father</div><div>patrino - mother (suffix -in- for females)</=
div><div><br></div><div>Ithkuil employs a different approach. It uses two a=
ffixes, something like "plus" and "minus" to determine where on the scale w=
e are present.</div><div>so e.g. we have a root for "good/bad" (let it be R=
OOT1) and for &nbsp;"left-right" (let it be ROOT2) and mark them with prefi=
xes.</div><div><br></div><div>good =3D plus-ROOT1</div><div>bad =3D minus-R=
OOT2</div><div>right =3D plus-ROOT1</div><div>left =3D minus-ROOT2</div><di=
v><br></div><div>If such policy applied in Lojbanistan left-handed people w=
ould definitely leave the community as "minus" prefix is associated both wi=
th "bad" and "left hand".</div><div>Somehow we must choose what is positive=
 and what is negative.</div><div>Therefore I state that</div><div><b>AFFIX =
POLICY FOR SCALE PREDICATE IN ESPERANTO AND ITHKUIL IS NOT CULTURALLY NEUTR=
AL.</b></div><div>The only way to be culturally neutral is the policy of ma=
ny natural languages, i.e. having two separate words for each member of the=
 pair.</div><div>In Lojban we have {zunle - pritu}, {bemro - snanu} etc.</d=
iv><div>Note that even in Esperanto separate root appeared for cheap instea=
d of just "anti-expensive" which proves that such policy is naturalistic.</=
div><div><br></div><div>(This message appeared after discussing "clockwise"=
 and "counterclockwise" concepts in a separate topic that in my opinion als=
o deserve separate words).</div><div><br></div><div>Other solutions are cul=
turally non-neutral.</div><div>Almost every person belongs &nbsp;to some so=
cial minority: left-handed minority, sexual minorities, ethnic minorities. =
But together they constitute MAJORITY of the population.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>In other words only the current policy of Lojban is best.</div><div>=
Yes, two separate words instead of one+affix is the cost of such neutrality=
.</div><div>(If you wanna be non-neutral please use {tolpritu} instead of {=
zunle}, it's absolutely not a problem).</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>=
<div><br></div><div><br></div></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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