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From: iesk <pa.fae@gmx.de>
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Subject: [lojban] Re: The global problem of mirror paired predicates
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Le vendredi 10 ao=FBt 2012 12:08:17 UTC+2, Gleki Arxokuna a =E9crit :
>
> There are several pairs of predicates that can be expressed in a differen=
t=20
> way.
> 1. left - right
> 2. south - north
> 3. east - west
> 4. female - male
> 5. white - black
> 6. expensive - cheap
> 7. healthy - ill
> 8. good - bad
>
> Some conlangs like Esperanto have only one root for each pair and use=20
> prefixes (e.g. "anti-") to express the second member of the set.
> So=20
> left =3D anti-right
> ill =3D  anti-healthy
>
> or
> patro - father
> patrino - mother (suffix -in- for females)
>
I don=92t think Esperanto scholars or speakers would consider patro=97patri=
no a=20
scale. Esperanto just lacks a +MASCULIN suffix (thus, it is a feminist=20
language q.e.d. =96 just kidding), and *usage decides* that some roots are=
=20
inherently male, most of the time, and some are not.


=20

>
> Ithkuil employs a different approach. It uses two affixes, something like=
=20
> "plus" and "minus" to determine where on the scale we are present.
> so e.g. we have a root for "good/bad" (let it be ROOT1) and for=20
>  "left-right" (let it be ROOT2) and mark them with prefixes.
>
> good =3D plus-ROOT1
> bad =3D minus-ROOT2
> right =3D plus-ROOT1
> left =3D minus-ROOT2
>

> If such policy applied in Lojbanistan left-handed people would definitely=
=20
> leave the community as "minus" prefix is associated both with "bad" and=
=20
> "left hand".
>
That is a bold prediction. I guess the author of Ithkuil who put those=20
scales on paper writes from left to right and is an optimist. ;) I don=92t=
=20
know much about Ithkuil, though.
=20

> Somehow we must choose what is positive and what is negative.
> Therefore I state that
> *AFFIX POLICY FOR SCALE PREDICATE IN ESPERANTO AND ITHKUIL IS NOT=20
> CULTURALLY NEUTRAL.*
> The only way to be culturally neutral is the policy of many natural=20
> languages, i.e. having two separate words for each member of the pair.
> In Lojban we have {zunle - pritu}, {bemro - snanu} etc.
> Note that even in Esperanto separate root appeared for cheap instead of=
=20
> just "anti-expensive" which proves that such policy is naturalistic.
>
Note how little use is made of most of those ersatz words in actual usage.
=20

>
> (This message appeared after discussing "clockwise" and "counterclockwise=
"=20
> concepts in a separate topic that in my opinion also deserve separate=20
> words).
>
> Other solutions are culturally non-neutral.
> Almost every person belongs  to some social minority: left-handed=20
> minority, sexual minorities, ethnic minorities. But together they=20
> constitute MAJORITY of the population.
>
> In other words only the current policy of Lojban is best.
> Yes, two separate words instead of one+affix is the cost of such=20
> neutrality.
> (If you wanna be non-neutral please use {tolpritu} instead of {zunle},=20
> it's absolutely not a problem).
>
>
>
>
>

--=20
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Le vendredi 10 ao=FBt 2012 12:08:17 UTC+2, Gleki Arxokuna a =E9crit&nbsp;:<=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;bord=
er-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">There are several pairs of pred=
icates that can be expressed in a different way.<div>1. left - right</div><=
div>2. south - north</div><div>3. east - west</div><div>4. female - male</d=
iv><div>5. white - black</div><div>6. expensive - cheap</div><div>7. health=
y - ill</div><div>8. good - bad</div><div><br></div><div>Some conlangs like=
 Esperanto have only one root for each pair and use prefixes (e.g. "anti-")=
 to express the second member of the set.</div><div>So&nbsp;</div><div>left=
 =3D anti-right</div><div>ill =3D &nbsp;anti-healthy</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>or</div><div>patro - father</div><div>patrino - mother (suffix -in- for =
females)</div></blockquote><div>I don=92t think Esperanto scholars or speak=
ers would consider patro=97patrino a scale. Esperanto just lacks a +MASCULI=
N suffix (thus, it is a feminist language q.e.d. =96 just kidding), and *us=
age decides* that some roots are inherently male, most of the time, and som=
e are not.<br><br><br>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: =
1ex;"><div><br></div><div>Ithkuil employs a different approach. It uses two=
 affixes, something like "plus" and "minus" to determine where on the scale=
 we are present.</div><div>so e.g. we have a root for "good/bad" (let it be=
 ROOT1) and for &nbsp;"left-right" (let it be ROOT2) and mark them with pre=
fixes.</div><div><br></div><div>good =3D plus-ROOT1</div><div>bad =3D minus=
-ROOT2</div><div>right =3D plus-ROOT1</div><div>left =3D minus-ROOT2</div><=
/blockquote><div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0=
;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div><b=
r></div><div>If such policy applied in Lojbanistan left-handed people would=
 definitely leave the community as "minus" prefix is associated both with "=
bad" and "left hand".</div></blockquote><div>That is a bold prediction. I g=
uess the author of Ithkuil who put those scales on paper writes from left t=
o right and is an optimist. ;) I don=92t know much about Ithkuil, though.<b=
r>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-l=
eft: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div>Somehow we =
must choose what is positive and what is negative.</div><div>Therefore I st=
ate that</div><div><b>AFFIX POLICY FOR SCALE PREDICATE IN ESPERANTO AND ITH=
KUIL IS NOT CULTURALLY NEUTRAL.</b></div><div>The only way to be culturally=
 neutral is the policy of many natural languages, i.e. having two separate =
words for each member of the pair.</div><div>In Lojban we have {zunle - pri=
tu}, {bemro - snanu} etc.</div><div>Note that even in Esperanto separate ro=
ot appeared for cheap instead of just "anti-expensive" which proves that su=
ch policy is naturalistic.</div></blockquote><div>Note how little use is ma=
de of most of those ersatz words in actual usage.<br>&nbsp;</div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: =
1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div><br></div><div>(This message appear=
ed after discussing "clockwise" and "counterclockwise" concepts in a separa=
te topic that in my opinion also deserve separate words).</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Other solutions are culturally non-neutral.</div><div>Almost every =
person belongs &nbsp;to some social minority: left-handed minority, sexual =
minorities, ethnic minorities. But together they constitute MAJORITY of the=
 population.</div><div><br></div><div>In other words only the current polic=
y of Lojban is best.</div><div>Yes, two separate words instead of one+affix=
 is the cost of such neutrality.</div><div>(If you wanna be non-neutral ple=
ase use {tolpritu} instead of {zunle}, it's absolutely not a problem).</div=
><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></blockquote>

<p></p>

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