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Subject: Re: [lojban] Direction of Rotation
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On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Escape Landsome <escaaape@gmail.com>wrote:

> > W1 = x1 is rotating clockwise on axis x2 in reference frame x3.
> > W2 = x1 is rotating counterclockwise on axis x2 in reference frame x3.
>
> Let's admit that, but the meanings of W1 and W2 are cultural.
>
> How do I know something turns clockwise --- that is, how do I explain
> it to some distant alien ???
>
> If I say that the rotation vector is some Z which is (X x Y), then I
> must explain how to carry the vectorial product in such a way that I
> notify that the Z direction is the one of my middle finger when my
> thumb plays X's role, and my second finger Y' role, with my right
> hand, for instance...
>
> Which is totally untractable for a alien living in Andromeda, or in a
> mirror-reversed world.
>
> Thus, this explanation is CULTURALLY biased.
>
> Another explanation invoking the rotation direction of an ORDINARY
> clock, or of the Sun in MY hemisphery,... would be of course cultural

too...
>

It appears from your statement the you're making the obviously invalid
assumption that these peoples would have a common language with us. It is a
near certainty that not only would any beings we encounter /not/ speak any
of our languages, would likely not share any of our values, and possibly
not even experience events in a similar manner to us. It goes without
saying that in order to have successful communication with ETs, we would
have to first find and then build upon common ground.

Which is why all of the scientists who are actively involved in potential
communication with extraterrestrial intelligent life forms have determined
long, long ago to use mathematics as the starting point, as math is
universal, and nearly everything in existence can be described by a
mathematical formula. (Mathematicians will say EVERYTHING can, not just
nearly, but they haven't figured out the formulas for it all yet, so I
withhold judgement.) No matter where you go in the universe, 2+2=4,
regardless of the names you use for the numbers or operations.

-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 10:18 AM, Escape Landsom=
e <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:escaaape@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">escaaape@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex">
&gt; W1 =3D x1 is rotating clockwise on axis x2 in reference frame x3.<br>
&gt; W2 =3D x1 is rotating counterclockwise on axis x2 in reference frame x=
3.<br>
<br>
Let&#39;s admit that, but the meanings of W1 and W2 are cultural.<br>
<br>
How do I know something turns clockwise --- that is, how do I explain<br>
it to some distant alien ???<br>
<br>
If I say that the rotation vector is some Z which is (X x Y), then I<br>
must explain how to carry the vectorial product in such a way that I<br>
notify that the Z direction is the one of my middle finger when my<br>
thumb plays X&#39;s role, and my second finger Y&#39; role, with my right<b=
r>
hand, for instance...<br>
<br>
Which is totally untractable for a alien living in Andromeda, or in a<br>
mirror-reversed world.<br>
<br>
Thus, this explanation is CULTURALLY biased.<br>
<br>
Another explanation invoking the rotation direction of an ORDINARY<br>
clock, or of the Sun in MY hemisphery,... would be of course cultural=A0</b=
lockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">too...<br></blockquote><div><br>It=
 appears from your statement the you&#39;re making the obviously invalid as=
sumption that these peoples would have a common language with us. It is a n=
ear certainty that not only would any beings we encounter /not/ speak any o=
f our languages, would likely not share any of our values, and possibly not=
 even experience events in a similar manner to us. It goes without saying t=
hat in order to have successful communication with ETs, we would have to fi=
rst find and then build upon common ground.<br>
<br></div></div>Which is why all of the scientists who are actively involve=
d in potential communication with extraterrestrial intelligent life forms h=
ave determined long, long ago to use mathematics as the starting point, as =
math is universal, and nearly everything in existence can be described by a=
 mathematical formula. (Mathematicians will say EVERYTHING can, not just ne=
arly, but they haven&#39;t figured out the formulas for it all yet, so I wi=
thhold judgement.) No matter where you go in the universe, 2+2=3D4, regardl=
ess of the names you use for the numbers or operations.<br>
<br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo piln=
o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Lu=
ke, I am your father. :D )<br><br>

<p></p>

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