On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 2:45 AM, Gleki Arxokuna = <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:
May be I missed something in this conversation but (lindar will confirm) I = didn't want to join this discussion yesterday until I could figure out = everything myself. I even said in chat "Think 100 times before suggest= ing any new gismu".

Still la lindar posted eir message to the list and I had to reply to it.

So let's get back to business.

The scrutiny shows tha= t {carna} has everything that we need.

Here is= my solution.

1. Take a clock from the wall.

2. Put it on the floor.

3. Sit on top of the clock. Just in the middle of the clock! Be carefu= l not to break something in the mechanism.

4. Look at the hands (= pointers) of the clock.

5. See? They are moving to the right of your=A0point in space! Every a= tom of the hand of the clock is moving to the right.

6. Now stand= up and put the clock to the wall.

7. Wow! The hand is no longer = moving to the right. It's moving clockwise!

So {carna fi lo pritu} means "rotate clockwise&quo= t;.

Now what is {se carna}?

{se carna} is the axis around which the object is rotating. Your follo= wing statements seem to think it means something entirely different.
=A0

Here we have a mino= r problem.
When you were sitting on the clock you were the upper = part of the axis, namely the part sticking out of the front of the clock.
By the word "front" I mean that part that has digits painted= on it and hands moving.
What is "front"? What is "= ;face"?
These are two-dimensional but one-side objects (like= M=F6bius band or something).

You can't look at my face from the other side. You will sim= ply see the back of my head.

This is what we need.=
{carna lo crane lo pritu}.

May be the d= efinition of {carna} is really not an ideal one but I no longer support any= new gismu for "clockwise".

It's better to clarify {carna} definition, may be =A0change it to= =A0
x1 turns or rotates around from the viewpoint (reference frame) o= f x2 in direction x3

This has also to d= o with the concept of the "line of sight".

Humans have it and this is what "reference frame" usually re= fers to.
We look forward and see the hands of the clock moving.
Even if we are blind we have such body orientation (including mout= h, nose, limbs etc) so that we are still oriented forward.

What if we had eyes on our backs:=A0{pritu} has also "fram= e of reference" place. Therefore, two ref-frames annihilate (sumti/sum= ti=3D1) and we are culturally neutral again.

You m= ight argue: what if spiders that have eyes on their limbs learnt Lojban? Wo= uld that be culturaly neutral?

We must think about them too!
The answer is pretty clear.
If you have an eye on your leg please use reference frame and speci= fy which of your multiple eyes is looking at the clock.

Still we have "line of sight" left. I think that every hu= man or probably every animal has such feature. I can't imagine any crea= ture without "lines-of-sensory-input". All sensory organs work th= at way. Therefore, I state that it's culturally neutral.

I haven't read all the conversation. So may be some= body has already understood this.
Thanks for your attention anywa= y.

On Saturday, August 11, 2012 10:29:28 AM UTC+4, aionys wro= te:

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 9:58 PM, Jonathan Jones = <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 9= :42 PM, Pierre Abbat <ph...@phma.optus.nu> wrote:

On Friday 10 August 2012 16:02:46 Jonathan Jones wro= te:
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Pierre Abbat <ph...@phma.optus.= nu> wrote:
> > On Friday 10 August 2012 03:32:53 la .lindar. wrote:
> > > What sort of thing would you put in the x3 of carna that wou= ld seem
> >
> > valid.
> >
> > lo terdi cu carna lo jendu lo berti .i lo junla cu carna lo jendu= lo
> > bitmu .i
> > lo xislu be lo karce cu carna lo jendu lo zunle be lo karce
> >
> > mu'omi'e .pier.
>
> Those examples don't work, because in each of them you give a refe= rence
> point for the x3, and in none of them do you give a direction. (That s= aid,
> if carna's definition was the one I talked ab out last night, all = of them
> would be perfect examples.)

The direction is from the clock, along its ax= is, into the wall, which
corresponds to a direction of rotation by the convention of holding the rig= ht
hand so that its thumb is along the axis and the other fingers curl in the<= br> direction of rotation.

No, that's not what I m= ean. You don't specify which direction the objects are rotating. The &q= uot;direction" you're talking about is the reference point.

Okay, wait, I missed the "...corresponds t= o a direction of rotation...." the first time I read it. Still, your x= 3's only work if you follow that convention, which requires you to /kno= w/ it in the first place. I don't know how known it is, but I'd cer= tainly not heard of it before you mentioned it, which leads me to believe &= quot;very well" is not the answer.

It is a neat way to shove the reference point and direction of rotation= together, even though it always means "counterclockwise".

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cm= ima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )