Received: from mail-pb0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]:42237) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1T0Ocj-0004qd-P9; Sat, 11 Aug 2012 20:14:04 -0700 Received: by pbbrp2 with SMTP id rp2sf3402899pbb.16 for ; Sat, 11 Aug 2012 20:13:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:message-id:date:from:reply-to :subject:to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=gnOlXm2sdgsO/oYvwOAnCoIlky3iwwiJppurAfUlLt8=; b=Eof7Lmxpg8/uAHNzLDlo0HgFPKfCaE2tsuXPyclAh3omUgbAHpZyWVlP4Zez4meYmL vMBUoK87N+ykEDsYPnRSZ52KiRP7lQglgxiF/nqMIYsSi0X2ttezR3Vua2Q1uICl1c9W ebAGZYnjoSVLRK1Ee+vd6vb4w4jBSBOhvdyYE= Received: by 10.68.212.166 with SMTP id nl6mr1471100pbc.6.1344741227586; Sat, 11 Aug 2012 20:13:47 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.230.196 with SMTP id ta4ls15591289pbc.1.gmail; Sat, 11 Aug 2012 20:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.88.41 with SMTP id bd9mr678794pab.47.1344741227101; Sat, 11 Aug 2012 20:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.88.41 with SMTP id bd9mr678793pab.47.1344741227082; Sat, 11 Aug 2012 20:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm21.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm21.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com. [98.139.91.91]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id vo7si1103233pbc.1.2012.08.11.20.13.46 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 11 Aug 2012 20:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.91.91 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.139.91.91; Received: from [72.30.22.78] by nm21.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Aug 2012 03:13:46 -0000 Received: from [68.142.200.227] by tm12.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Aug 2012 03:13:46 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.101] by t8.bullet.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Aug 2012 03:13:46 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1006.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 12 Aug 2012 03:13:46 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 541052.85058.bm@omp1006.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 61823 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Aug 2012 03:13:45 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: iitZUOgVM1k0iC2g4qAy9.AMfsj3fdWx53atIRkdJDR3y0g WsCFC.0m.n00RCi21QwMUx0lMA.VzS7dqx5UzU0pqGPSkCP4tjQrP5Ma_fHK .LW1bkq0eL1qB430Nq8t_h5Fyr3Ag8V3tle97DZvzPwn3nbUKoQgwNi1RjJB pELL62cZOO5B3szF86j87_CWn5cAqoAr665oz8o._fv4h3H2REefw1KKes4c ES02_JpZXkqwdB.fWnQ6e3PiEFE.u3tDrjr8vYP2F13Sc2r1eMgzOBky65em q6rLIFnNJxDgFSgABA_duYhRL.tCjg3P6z4EsYwakLtAoxVbJBfKI2BNhHPa CbRPAcoZ4d4qsBDbQ4OpEGMxhaSBZz2Wuf8wWGg7oENB_IDmEkr4ZuRdnFyY ET0o8DFnr3ddUVVLf9iWG7rVGqi49.QMU2xEnc6dAxcnwzvzK3v1keLYEyeV 0ugZmeXd.UqknF1MpZcTaSIs499Qd99gRaIbyOLfWOkyZuydyRwqFJxcg1hm JBMGQRRpG6HQhYg17GNj0O_AyvPoVZ9nhUvA544sKgi0.WJPq6WX1rVBfmcx tjP5PT34hl_2Hoej59cE- Received: from [99.92.108.194] by web184403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 11 Aug 2012 20:13:45 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.120.356233 References: <50255C09.10805@lojban.org> <1344701600.97921.YahooMailNeo@web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1344741225.61800.YahooMailNeo@web184403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 20:13:45 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] {.au}/{djica}={.ai}/{?}. No gismu for intention To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.91.91 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-6906265-1576312626-1344741225=:61800" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ---6906265-1576312626-1344741225=:61800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No, this misunderstands a basic distinction in Lojban between assertions an= d the rest and is just wrong for the function of words like {ai} and=A0 {ui= }.=A0 There is a difference between being disingenuous and lying and=A0 tha= t appears in the difference between saying {ui} and {mi gleki} when I am no= t happy: the first may be misleading but is not false (since not an asserti= on), the second is an assertion and is false.=A0 Mixing the two up, as peop= le have been doing for 55 years in Logjam, is a basic logical mistake and t= he source of a large number of stupid arguments on the relevant lists (this= may be one of them).=A0 The source is, of course, the English habit of not= distinguishing the two verbally, one among many of the reasons for designi= ng Logjam.=A0 I am unclear what a truth function that takes a person as an = argument might be; typically they take a sentence in a particular frame, wh= ich does indeed contain the speaker as a relevant factor (the referent of "I", for example), but not a direct argument.=A0 to be sure, the adequacy = condition on a truth function applied to "I am happy" requires that the ref= erent of "I", the speaker, be in the class of happy persons, but that is a = another matter.=A0 There is no truth function that takes {ui} as an argumen= t, whether or not there is some function that takes the speaker as an argum= ent. {ai} is a harder case, because sometimes we rely peoples expressed intentio= ns (not, it seems, on the intention to go, though one can build cases that = are as significant as the intetion to give a million).=A0 Not fulfilling th= ose expectations can cause very bad feeling, even, in certain cases, law su= its or the like, or violence.=A0 But that does not mean that the expression= of the intention was a lie, even if it was misleading.=A0 It may not even = be disingenuous, as xorxes points out, being what the speaker intended at t= he time, before he changed his mind -- or discovered that his fortune had d= isappeared or ...=A0=A0 Promising to give someone the moon may be over the = top or metaphorical, but it isn't false (nor true neither), at most it is i= nsincere and unfulfillable (as of now, at least -- there is a treaty on tha= t isn't there?)=A0 And, there are more ways to deceive than by lying. ________________________________ From: Mike S. To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20 Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:32 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] {.au}/{djica}=3D{.ai}/{?}. No gismu for intention =20 On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 6:52 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas wr= ote: >At least no claim or assertion can do it, but you can use a >proposition for other purposes than making claims. "ca'e" is supposed >to mark a sentence as a performative (despite its gloss), so if you >say "ca'e mi jarco lo nu mi brodu lo nu klama"; "I hereby express my >intention to go", you are thereby expressing an intention to go. So >".ai" could be taken as an abreviated form of "ca'e mi jarco lo nu mi >brodu". Similarly for other attitudinals, "ui" is similar to "ca'e mi >jarco lo nu mi gleki", "I hereby display my happiness", and so on. >(The wordy form doesn't quite have the same practical effect though.) > >mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > I would think that ".ui" simply means "I am happy", not "I display my happi= ness".=A0 Either way, if the speaker is actually unhappy, I think that we h= ave to admit that he is being disingenuous to his audience if he utters ".u= i" with no hint of irony.=A0 Because of this, I think these attitudinals ar= e as truth-functional as any brivla: they evaluate to a real truth value gi= ven two arguments: the speaker and the proposition that the attitudinal is = embedded in. Obviously it's hard to know if a person is truthful in the exp= ression of his own feelings, but there are sometimes signs, and the truth v= alue of such expressions are still there, however hidden. Even more so in the case with the irrealis attitudinals.=A0 If I say ".ai [= I am giving you a million bucks tomorrow]" when I know that I am bankrupt a= nd all my banking accounts are overdrawn then clearly I am lying to you.=A0= ".ai mi dunda la lunra do" is simply (literally) false when uttered by any= non-delusional interlocutor. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. ---6906265-1576312626-1344741225=:61800 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No, this misunderstands a basic distinction in Lojban between ass= ertions and the rest and is just wrong for the function of words like {ai} = and  {ui}.  There is a difference between being disingenuous and = lying and  that appears in the difference between saying {ui} and {mi = gleki} when I am not happy: the first may be misleading but is not false (s= ince not an assertion), the second is an assertion and is false.  Mixi= ng the two up, as people have been doing for 55 years in Logjam, is a basic= logical mistake and the source of a large number of stupid arguments on th= e relevant lists (this may be one of them).  The source is, of course, = the English habit of not distinguishing the two verbally, one among many of= the reasons for designing Logjam.  I am unclear what a truth function= that takes a person as an argument might be; typically they take a sentenc= e in a particular frame, which does indeed contain the speaker as a relevan= t factor (the referent of "I", for example), but not a direct argument.&nbs= p; to be sure, the adequacy condition on a truth function applied to "I am = happy" requires that the referent of "I", the speaker, be in the class of h= appy persons, but that is a another matter.  There is no truth functio= n that takes {ui} as an argument, whether or not there is some function tha= t takes the speaker as an argument.

{ai} is a harder case, because s= ometimes we rely peoples expressed intentions (not, it seems, on the intent= ion to go, though one can build cases that are as significant as the intetion to give a million).  Not fulfilling those expectations can c= ause very bad feeling, even, in certain cases, law suits or the like, or vi= olence.  But that does not mean that the expression of the intention w= as a lie, even if it was misleading.  It may not even be disingenuous,= as xorxes points out, being what the speaker intended at the time, before = he changed his mind -- or discovered that his fortune had disappeared or ..= .   Promising to give someone the moon may be over the top or met= aphorical, but it isn't false (nor true neither), at most it is insincere a= nd unfulfillable (as of now, at least -- there is a treaty on that isn't th= ere?)  And, there are more ways to deceive than by lying.

=

From: = Mike S. <maikxlx@gmail.com>
= To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] {.au}/{djica}=3D{.a= i}/{?}. No gismu for intention



O= n Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 6:52 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wro= te:

At least no claim or assertion can do it, but you can use a
proposition for other purposes than making claims. "ca'e" is supposed
to mark a sentence as a performative (despite its gloss), so if you
say "ca'e mi jarco lo nu mi brodu lo nu klama"; "I hereby express my
intention to go", you are thereby expressing an intention to go. So
".ai" could be taken as an abreviated form of "ca'e mi jarco lo nu mi
brodu". Similarly for other attitudinals, "ui" is similar to "ca'e mi
jarco lo nu mi gleki", "I hereby display my happiness", and so on.
(The wordy form doesn't quite have the same practical effect though.)

mu'o mi'e xorxes


I would think that ".ui" simply means "I am h= appy", not "I display my happiness".  Either way, if the speaker is ac= tually unhappy, I think that we have to admit that he is being disingenuous= to his audience if he utters ".ui" with no hint of irony.  Because of= this, I think these attitudinals are as truth-functional as any brivla: th= ey evaluate to a real truth value given two arguments: the speaker and the = proposition that the attitudinal is embedded in. Obviously it's hard to kno= w if a person is truthful in the expression of his own feelings, but there = are sometimes signs, and the truth value of such expressions are still ther= e, however hidden.

Even more so in the case with the irrealis attitudinals.  If I say= ".ai [I am giving you a million bucks tomorrow]" when I know that I am ban= krupt and all my banking accounts are overdrawn then clearly I am lying to = you.  ".ai mi dunda la lunra do" is simply (literally) false when utte= red by any non-delusional interlocutor.




--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
---6906265-1576312626-1344741225=:61800--