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On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Gleki Arxokuna
<gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>wrote:

> So Robin entered right-hand rule to Gismu issues page.
>
> Can you provide some examples of it's usage with all places filled in? Is
> it culturally-neutral (both left and right direction can be equally used)?
>
> btw, lindar started this topic because he NEEDED a way of expressing the
> concept of "clockwise".
>
> doi loi jbobadna, where are the examples after all?
>

I did a search for carna in the corpus (
http://www.lojban.org/corpus/search/carna), specifically to find out if my
preferred definition (x1 rotates counter-clockwise on axis x2 in reference
frame x3) actually would break past usage, and from what I saw, it's rarely
actually used to describe rotational motion, and even when it is, the x3 is
either not filled, or filled incorrectly. More often, it's used in the
sense "x1 turns towards x3", as in {mi carna fi lo mi zdani vorme}.

The vast majority of uses are with completely unfilled places, as in in a
tanru or abstraction.

Robin is of the opinion that we need to "turn" words, one for in things
such as "Jeff turned to Sam and said....", and another for rotational
motion, as in "The top is spinning counter-clockwise when looked at from
above the spindle."

I would agree. I think that in most cases, changing carna to "x1 turns from
x2 to x3" would not break past usage, and we could then have a different
gismu for rotational motion.


> On Sunday, August 12, 2012 12:34:00 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 10:11 AM, djandus <jan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't have time to go over every post in this thread, especially
>>> seeing as it is rather full of people getting offended.
>>>
>>> Has anyone brought up the right-hand rule? (for rotations)
>>>
>>> That is, for the wheels on a car, I could say:
>>> {lo karce xislu cu carna zo'e lo zunle be lo karce}
>>> because if you were to stick your right thumb to the car's left, your
>>> fingers would curl around in the direction of rotation. This is consistent
>>> with the overall standard of the right-hand rule, which comes up on this
>>> topic via the cross product definition of angular motion. That is, if I
>>> were to be asked the "direction" of the angular motion, momentum, or
>>> similar, it would be to the car's left. This *is* arbitrary, but
>>> completely standardized in physics.
>>>
>>
>> I believe Pierre did, yes.
>>
>>
>>> Similarly, I would say that a top would be {carna zo'e lo gapru} if it
>>> were spinning counter-clockwise when viewed from above. If I were to
>>> instruct one to remove a screw, I could say {ko cargau lo klupe ku zo'e lo
>>> bartu}, because the direction a screw moves and the direction it needs to
>>> rotate correspond by the same standard right-hand rule. If I were to use
>>> the carna2 spot, the axis would probably be defined with a direction as
>>> "positive," after which I could then use {li ni'u}/{li ma'u} in carna3.
>>> (This would be the establisment of a coordinate system.) If the axis was
>>> given descriptively without a direction, then my other examples illustrate
>>> how I would deal with that.
>>>
>>> Is there anything terribly wrong with these examples?
>>> mu'o mi'e djos
>>>
>>
>> I don't see anything.
>>
>> --
>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>
>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>
>>  --
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-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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--f46d0401236f0caeef04c70cca68
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<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Gleki Arxokuna =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex">
So Robin entered right-hand rule to Gismu issues page.<div><br></div><div>C=
an you provide some examples of it&#39;s usage with all places filled in? I=
s it culturally-neutral (both left and right direction can be equally used)=
?</div>
<div><br></div><div>btw, lindar started this topic because he NEEDED a way =
of expressing the concept of &quot;clockwise&quot;.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>doi loi jbobadna, where are the examples after all?<br></div></blockquote=
>
<div><br>I did a search for carna in the corpus (<a href=3D"http://www.lojb=
an.org/corpus/search/carna">http://www.lojban.org/corpus/search/carna</a>),=
 specifically to find out if my preferred definition (x1 rotates counter-cl=
ockwise on axis x2 in reference frame x3) actually would break past usage, =
and from what I saw, it&#39;s rarely actually used to describe rotational m=
otion, and even when it is, the x3 is either not filled, or filled incorrec=
tly. More often, it&#39;s used in the sense &quot;x1 turns towards x3&quot;=
, as in {mi carna fi lo mi zdani vorme}.<br>
<br>The vast majority of uses are with completely unfilled places, as in in=
 a tanru or abstraction.<br><br>Robin is of the opinion that we need to &qu=
ot;turn&quot; words, one for in things such as &quot;Jeff turned to Sam and=
 said....&quot;, and another for rotational motion, as in &quot;The top is =
spinning counter-clockwise when looked at from above the spindle.&quot;<br>
<br>I would agree. I think that in most cases, changing carna to &quot;x1 t=
urns from x2 to x3&quot; would not break past usage, and we could then have=
 a different gismu for rotational motion.<br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex">
<div>On Sunday, August 12, 2012 12:34:00 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:<div><div c=
lass=3D"h5"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left=
:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote">
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 10:11 AM, djandus <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a>jan...@g=
mail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I don&#39;t have time to go over every post in this thread, especially seei=
ng as it is rather full of people getting offended.<div><br></div><div>Has =
anyone brought up the right-hand rule? (for rotations)</div><div><br></div>

<div>That is, for the wheels on a car, I could say:</div><div>{lo karce xis=
lu cu carna zo&#39;e lo zunle be lo karce}</div><div>because if you were to=
 stick your right thumb to the car&#39;s left, your fingers would curl arou=
nd in the direction of rotation. This is consistent with the overall standa=
rd of the right-hand rule, which comes up on this topic via the cross produ=
ct definition of angular motion. That is, if I were to be asked the &quot;d=
irection&quot; of the angular motion, momentum, or similar, it would be to =
the car&#39;s left. This <i>is</i>=A0arbitrary, but completely standardized=
 in physics.</div>

</blockquote><div><br>I believe Pierre did, yes.<br>=A0</div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div></div><div>Similarly, I would say that a top would be=
 {carna zo&#39;e lo gapru} if it were spinning counter-clockwise when viewe=
d from above. If I were to instruct one to remove a screw, I could say {ko =
cargau lo klupe ku zo&#39;e lo bartu}, because the direction a screw moves =
and the direction it needs to rotate correspond by the same standard right-=
hand rule. If I were to use the carna2 spot, the axis would probably be def=
ined with a direction as &quot;positive,&quot; after which I could then use=
 {li ni&#39;u}/{li ma&#39;u} in carna3. (This would be the establisment of =
a coordinate system.) If the axis was given descriptively without a directi=
on, then my other examples illustrate how I would deal with that.</div>

<div><br></div><div>Is there anything terribly wrong with these examples?</=
div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e djos</div></blockquote><div><br>I don&#39;t see =
anything. <br></div></div><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>

.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;=
o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div><div class=3D"im">

<p></p>

-- <br>
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To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c=
om/d/msg/lojban/-/zs8HlDKVgFwJ" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com=
/d/msg/lojban/-/zs8HlDKVgFwJ</a>.<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><b=
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n?hl=3Den</a>.<br>


</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi=
&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l=
uk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. =
:D )<br>
<br>

<p></p>

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