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From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] {.au}/{djica}={.ai}/{?}. No gismu for intention
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---334495122-158768919-1344788352=:74549
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Thanks for the refresher.=A0 I still feel qualms, but I suspect they are re=
lated to the problem with emotives like {ui} rather than to performatives t=
hemselves.=A0 That, plus the uncertainty that {ai} has a performative compo=
nent.=A0 It does set up expectations, as does {ui}, but not the sort of web=
 that true world-creating expressions do.



________________________________
 From: Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] {.au}/{djica}=3D{.ai}/{?}. No gismu for intention
=20
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:36 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wr=
ote:
> I think saying that a bridi marked by {ca'e} is true is a dangerous move =
to
> make, though I can the reasoning behind it.

Apparently that's Searle's position on performatives while Austin's is
the one you prefer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_utterance

"John R. Searle argued in his 1989 article How Performatives Work that
performatives are true/false just like constatives. Searle further
claimed that performatives are what he calls declarations; this is a
technical notion of Searle's account: according to his conception, an
utterance is a declaration, if "the successful performance of the
speech act is sufficient to bring about the fit between words and
world, to make the propositional content true." Searle believes that
this double direction of fit contrasts the simple word-to-world fit of
assertives."

> (or whatever -- I like 'simxu speni'
> and wish we had something as graceful in English

I don't find it graceful at all, it makes me want to ask "simxu speni
ma", "mutually married to whom?". It should be either "simxu lo ka
speni" or eventually "speni simxu", but not "simxu speni".)

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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---334495122-158768919-1344788352=:74549
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>Thanks for=
 the refresher.&nbsp; I still feel qualms, but I suspect they are related t=
o the problem with emotives like {ui} rather than to performatives themselv=
es.&nbsp; That, plus the uncertainty that {ai} has a performative component=
.&nbsp; It does set up expectations, as does {ui}, but not the sort of web =
that true world-creating expressions do.<br></span></div><div><br></div>  <=
div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-siz=
e: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york, times, ser=
if; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <=
hr size=3D"1">  <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Jorge=
 Llamb=EDas &lt;jjllambias@gmail.com&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:=
 bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@googlegroups.com <br> <b><span style=3D"font-=
weight:
 bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, August 12, 2012 10:38 AM<br> <b><span styl=
e=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [lojban] {.au}/{djica}=3D{=
.ai}/{?}. No gismu for intention<br> </font> </div> <br>
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:36 AM, John E Clifford &lt;<a ymailto=3D"mailto:=
kali9putra@yahoo.com" href=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com">kali9putra@yahoo=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; I think saying that a bridi marked by {ca'e} is=
 true is a dangerous move to<br>&gt; make, though I can the reasoning behin=
d it.<br><br>Apparently that's Searle's position on performatives while Aus=
tin's is<br>the one you prefer:<br>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performativ=
e_utterance<br><br>"John R. Searle argued in his 1989 article How Performat=
ives Work that<br>performatives are true/false just like constatives. Searl=
e further<br>claimed that performatives are what he calls declarations; thi=
s is a<br>technical notion of Searle's account: according to his conception=
, an<br>utterance is a declaration, if "the successful performance of the<b=
r>speech act is sufficient to bring about the fit between words and<br>worl=
d, to make the propositional content true." Searle believes that<br>this
 double direction of fit contrasts the simple word-to-world fit of<br>asser=
tives."<br><br>&gt; (or whatever -- I like 'simxu speni'<br>&gt; and wish w=
e had something as graceful in English<br><br>I don't find it graceful at a=
ll, it makes me want to ask "simxu speni<br>ma", "mutually married to whom?=
". It should be either "simxu lo ka<br>speni" or eventually "speni simxu", =
but not "simxu speni".)<br><br>mu'o mi'e xorxes<br><br>-- <br>You received =
this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group=
.<br>To post to this group, send email to <a ymailto=3D"mailto:lojban@googl=
egroups.com" href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com">lojban@googlegroups.co=
m</a>.<br>To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+<a ymailto=
=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com" href=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googleg=
roups.com">unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>For more options, visit thi=
s group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.<br><br><br><br> <=
/div>
 </div>  </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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