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On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 3:22 PM, Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder -
LLG <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:

> Mike S. wrote:
>
>> If I am free and officially sanctioned to say "ui" disingenuously i.e.
>> without really being happy, or I can say "ai" without even the slightest
>> conscious real intention (at the time, perhaps speaking a complete lie)
>> of follow-through, then I fear that "ui" and "ai" have no real meaning.
>> Is this what is wanted?
>>
>
> Yes - or at least any "meaning" is orthogonal to the truth of the bridi
> being expressed.
>
>
>  Consider what politicians would do with these
>> conventions.  Consider what they already do speaking English.
>>
>
> One cannot stop people from misusing language.  That doesn't mean that one
> should define language for the intent of having it misused.
>
>
>  If attitudinals don't assert at least a vague albeit real feeling felt
>> by the speaker, what do attitudinals really do?
>>
>
> Express. Attitude.
>
> Something that human beings do naturally, often without language, which
> makes it rather difficult to communicate via email or even by telephone in
> the same way we can communicate in person.  Attitudinals are an attempt to
> remedy that deficiency, and they only really work if we can use them
> fluently without thinking about them, in the same way that body language,
> tone of voice, and the occasional ejaculative expression works for natlang
> speakers.
>
>
>   But why in a logical language, a predicate-based
>
>> language, should the semantics of this small set of illocutionary
>> constructions be extended to the inner states of the speaker?
>>
>
> The attitudinals are orthogonal to the predicate-base language.  They
> fulfil an expressive need of human beings that CANNOT be met with
> predictations, that are fundamentally NOT "logical".
>
> Someone wishing to speak a purely "logical" language would never use
> attitudinals.
>
>
>   Why
>
>> _doesn't_ the speaker saying "ui" simply imply that the speaker is
>> really gleki,
>>
>
> Because human beings are illogical.
>
>
>  as a person would intuitively suspect?  What does it
>> really mean otherwise?
>>
>
> It doesn't "mean" anything, truth-functionally.


And yet attitudinals do have meaning. Meaning and truth-value have almost
nothing in common.

stevo

>
>
>  What do we gain from that dubious interpretation?
>>
>
> Humanity.
> --
> Bob LeChevalier    lojbab@lojban.org    www.lojban.org
>
> President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>

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--14dae9340b99f0030004c718972c
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 3:22 PM, Bob LeC=
hevalier, President and Founder - LLG <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:lojbab@lojban.org" target=3D"_blank">lojbab@lojban.org</a>&gt;</span> wr=
ote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">Mike S. wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
If I am free and officially sanctioned to say &quot;ui&quot; disingenuously=
 i.e.<br>
without really being happy, or I can say &quot;ai&quot; without even the sl=
ightest<br>
conscious real intention (at the time, perhaps speaking a complete lie)<br>
of follow-through, then I fear that &quot;ui&quot; and &quot;ai&quot; have =
no real meaning.<br>
Is this what is wanted?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Yes - or at least any &quot;meaning&quot; is orthogonal to the truth of the=
 bridi being expressed.<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Consider what politicians would do with these<br>
conventions. =A0Consider what they already do speaking English.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
One cannot stop people from misusing language. =A0That doesn&#39;t mean tha=
t one should define language for the intent of having it misused.<div class=
=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
If attitudinals don&#39;t assert at least a vague albeit real feeling felt<=
br>
by the speaker, what do attitudinals really do?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Express. Attitude.<br>
<br>
Something that human beings do naturally, often without language, which mak=
es it rather difficult to communicate via email or even by telephone in the=
 same way we can communicate in person. =A0Attitudinals are an attempt to r=
emedy that deficiency, and they only really work if we can use them fluentl=
y without thinking about them, in the same way that body language, tone of =
voice, and the occasional ejaculative expression works for natlang speakers=
.<div class=3D"im">

<br>
<br>
=A0 But why in a logical language, a predicate-based<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
language, should the semantics of this small set of illocutionary<br>
constructions be extended to the inner states of the speaker?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
The attitudinals are orthogonal to the predicate-base language. =A0They ful=
fil an expressive need of human beings that CANNOT be met with predictation=
s, that are fundamentally NOT &quot;logical&quot;.<br>
<br>
Someone wishing to speak a purely &quot;logical&quot; language would never =
use attitudinals.<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
=A0 Why<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
_doesn&#39;t_ the speaker saying &quot;ui&quot; simply imply that the speak=
er is<br>
really gleki,<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Because human beings are illogical.<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
as a person would intuitively suspect? =A0What does it<br>
really mean otherwise?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
It doesn&#39;t &quot;mean&quot; anything, truth-functionally.</blockquote><=
div><br></div><div>And yet attitudinals do have meaning. Meaning and truth-=
value have almost nothing in common.=A0</div><div><br></div><div>stevo=A0</=
div>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
What do we gain from that dubious interpretation?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Humanity.<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
-- <br>
Bob LeChevalier =A0 =A0<a href=3D"mailto:lojbab@lojban.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">lojbab@lojban.org</a> =A0 =A0<a href=3D"http://www.lojban.org" target=3D=
"_blank">www.lojban.org</a></font></span><div class=3D"im HOEnZb"><br>
President and Founder, The Logical Language Group, Inc.<br>
<br></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">
-- <br>
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<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

<p></p>

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