Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]:49622) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1T0ly5-0005MV-H8; Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:09:33 -0700 Received: by yenq11 with SMTP id q11sf4456729yen.16 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:09:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=oU4Vsi+obV1ZtymknSHvBjstNVQ+fAfqyPy1BGfXkr0=; b=wrnoF84/tc60G5scpjtWO1RT65vAVwzBz4sl8tErIPIElMeskXy82mkVwPUIFpimB8 aYXFT/kYnuk3ylGYaz72w8cZxCG+vdtkSPtHtY0ao6/4Fr9IyAhtvhwzifBBjns+0IUT wyEXEzHqTT27vBf3FbSBdJgDRKUN0AILGoZ2k= Received: by 10.52.71.7 with SMTP id q7mr974590vdu.20.1344830962753; Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:09:22 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.223.77 with SMTP id ij13ls4309448vcb.1.gmail; Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.34.8 with SMTP id v8mr983477vdi.5.1344830962176; Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:09:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com Cc: rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com Message-Id: <9c8f151a-c423-4d97-9f5c-d2c5fcade18c@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <4bce1b85-1742-4819-bebf-3f3ffe9162e2@googlegroups.com> <1344787920.72396.YahooMailNeo@web184403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Direction of Rotation MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1240_19802528.1344830961619" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_1240_19802528.1344830961619 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sunday, August 12, 2012 8:17:20 PM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote: > > > But you still need to specify which thumb. > > The right one; that's why it's a right hand rule. > > > Is there no escape from this? > > No, there isn't; as aionus pointed out, you need a reference frame. > Unfortunately, it's not culturally neutral. If we have {zunle/pritu} we need two words for rotation too: left-hand and right-hand rule. > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: .arpis. > > > To: loj...@googlegroups.com > > Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 10:34 AM > > Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Direction of Rotation > > > > Right hand rules are a series of mnemonics (usually taught in physics) > > for remembering the arbitrary but consistent directions and sign > > choices. An example: If the current is flowing in the direction of > > your thumb, the electric field is in the direction of your fingers (on > > the right hand). > > Left hand rules can be used, but negate one sign (in the math > > representation) relative to the right hand rules. > > > > A useful right hand rule for lojban might be "the direction your > > fingers curl when you point your right thumb at your face" > > > > On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 3:04 AM, Gleki Arxokuna > > > wrote: > >> So Robin entered right-hand rule to Gismu issues page. > >> > >> Can you provide some examples of it's usage with all places filled in? > Is > >> it > >> culturally-neutral (both left and right direction can be equally used)? > >> > >> btw, lindar started this topic because he NEEDED a way of expressing > the > >> concept of "clockwise". > >> > >> doi loi jbobadna, where are the examples after all? > >> > >> On Sunday, August 12, 2012 12:34:00 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 10:11 AM, djandus wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I don't have time to go over every post in this thread, especially > >>>> seeing > >>>> as it is rather full of people getting offended. > >>>> > >>>> Has anyone brought up the right-hand rule? (for rotations) > >>>> > >>>> That is, for the wheels on a car, I could say: > >>>> {lo karce xislu cu carna zo'e lo zunle be lo karce} > >>>> because if you were to stick your right thumb to the car's left, your > >>>> fingers would curl around in the direction of rotation. This is > >>>> consistent > >>>> with the overall standard of the right-hand rule, which comes up on > this > >>>> topic via the cross product definition of angular motion. That is, if > I > >>>> were > >>>> to be asked the "direction" of the angular motion, momentum, or > similar, > >>>> it > >>>> would be to the car's left. This is arbitrary, but completely > >>>> standardized > >>>> in physics. > >>> > >>> > >>> I believe Pierre did, yes. > >>> > >>>> > >>>> Similarly, I would say that a top would be {carna zo'e lo gapru} if > it > >>>> were spinning counter-clockwise when viewed from above. If I were to > >>>> instruct one to remove a screw, I could say {ko cargau lo klupe ku > zo'e > >>>> lo > >>>> bartu}, because the direction a screw moves and the direction it > needs > >>>> to > >>>> rotate correspond by the same standard right-hand rule. If I were to > use > >>>> the > >>>> carna2 spot, the axis would probably be defined with a direction as > >>>> "positive," after which I could then use {li ni'u}/{li ma'u} in > carna3. > >>>> (This would be the establisment of a coordinate system.) If the axis > was > >>>> given descriptively without a direction, then my other examples > >>>> illustrate > >>>> how I would deal with that. > >>>> > >>>> Is there anything terribly wrong with these examples? > >>>> mu'o mi'e djos > >>> > >>> > >>> I don't see anything. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. > >>> > >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > >>> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "lojban" group. > >> To view this discussion on the web visit > >> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/zs8HlDKVgFwJ. > >> > >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. > > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > > > -- > > mu'o mi'e .arpis. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .arpis. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/z54-hPRQNhMJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. ------=_Part_1240_19802528.1344830961619 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sunday, August 12, 2012 8:17:20 PM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote:> But you still need to specify whi= ch thumb.

The right one; that's why it's a right hand rule.

> Is there no escape from this?

No, there isn't; as aionus pointed out, you need a reference frame.
Unfortunately, it's not culturally neutral.
If we have {zunle/pritu} we need two words for rotation too: left-hand and= right-hand rule.
 

>
> ________________________________
> From: .arpis. <rpglover...@gmail.com>
> To: loj...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 10:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Direction of Rotation
>
> Right hand rules are a series of mnemonics (usually taught in phys= ics)
> for remembering the arbitrary but consistent directions and sign
> choices. An example: If the current is flowing in the direction of
> your thumb, the electric field is in the direction of your fingers= (on
> the right hand).
> Left hand rules can be used, but negate one sign (in the math
> representation) relative to the right hand rules.
>
> A useful right hand rule for lojban might be "the direction your
> fingers curl when you point your right thumb at your face"
>
> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 3:04 AM, Gleki Arxokuna
> <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> So Robin entered right-hand rule to Gismu issues page.
>>
>> Can you provide some examples of it's usage with all places fi= lled in? Is
>> it
>> culturally-neutral (both left and right direction can be equal= ly used)?
>>
>> btw, lindar started this topic because he NEEDED a way of expr= essing the
>> concept of "clockwise".
>>
>> doi loi jbobadna, where are the examples after all?
>>
>> On Sunday, August 12, 2012 12:34:00 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 10:11 AM, djandus <jan...@gm= ail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I don't have time to go over every post in this thread= , especially
>>>> seeing
>>>> as it is rather full of people getting offended.
>>>>
>>>> Has anyone brought up the right-hand rule? (for rotati= ons)
>>>>
>>>> That is, for the wheels on a car, I could say:
>>>> {lo karce xislu cu carna zo'e lo zunle be lo karce}
>>>> because if you were to stick your right thumb to the c= ar's left, your
>>>> fingers would curl around in the direction of rotation= . This is
>>>> consistent
>>>> with the overall standard of the right-hand rule, whic= h comes up on this
>>>> topic via the cross product definition of angular moti= on. That is, if I
>>>> were
>>>> to be asked the "direction" of the angular motion, mom= entum, or similar,
>>>> it
>>>> would be to the car's left. This is arbitrary, but com= pletely
>>>> standardized
>>>> in physics.
>>>
>>>
>>> I believe Pierre did, yes.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Similarly, I would say that a top would be {carna zo'e= lo gapru} if it
>>>> were spinning counter-clockwise when viewed from above= . If I were to
>>>> instruct one to remove a screw, I could say {ko cargau= lo klupe ku zo'e
>>>> lo
>>>> bartu}, because the direction a screw moves and the di= rection it needs
>>>> to
>>>> rotate correspond by the same standard right-hand rule= . If I were to use
>>>> the
>>>> carna2 spot, the axis would probably be defined with a= direction as
>>>> "positive," after which I could then use {li ni'u}/{li= ma'u} in carna3.
>>>> (This would be the establisment of a coordinate system= .) If the axis was
>>>> given descriptively without a direction, then my other= examples
>>>> illustrate
>>>> how I would deal with that.
>>>>
>>>> Is there anything terribly wrong with these examples?
>>>> mu'o mi'e djos
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't see anything.
>>>
>>> --
>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>>
>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi pat= fu do zo'o
>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Go= ogle Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/zs8HlDK= VgFwJ.
>>
>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups= .com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .arpis.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com= .
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com= .
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.



--=20
mu'o mi'e .arpis.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/z5= 4-hPRQNhMJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
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