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Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:12:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] {.au}/{djica}={.ai}/{?}. No gismu for intention
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On Sunday, August 12, 2012 10:34:10 PM UTC+4, lojbab wrote:
>
> Gleki Arxokuna wrote: 
> > On Friday, August 10, 2012 11:07:53 PM UTC+4, lojbab wrote: 
> > 
> >     Gleki Arxokuna wrote: 
> >      > If the difference between {.ai} and {.au} is so important then 
> >     why there 
> >      > is no gismu for "intention"? 
> > 
> >     The intended gismu corresponding to intention was "platu", or 
> perhaps 
> >     some compound thereof.  I'll accept the possible use of zukte 
> proposed 
> >     by someone else, though I think intention need not be purposive 
> either. 
> > 
> >      > {zukte} = "to intend"? the definition says nothing about that. It 
> >     should be clarified, that is changed. 
> > 
> >     The gismu list is baselined. We haven't allowed changes merely for 
> >     clarity for nearly 20 years. 
> > 
> > Here is the lack of clarity, actually. If there is no equivalent of 
> > {.ai} in gismu space we must create it. 
>
> I disagree.  It is NOT essential that concepts be expressed in gismu, if 
> they can be expressed in reasonably short, and possibly metaphorical, 
> lujvo. 
>

How would you say "I was gonna..."?

>
> One thing I did not mention last post: gismu, and brivla in general, 
> express claims.  Attitudinals do not express claims.  The set of claims 
> that we might express about the world does not match the set of emotions 
> that we might feel about the world.  Yes, it would sometimes be useful 
> to have words to talk about those emotions, umm, unemotionally.  But I 
> doubt that such analytical discussion of emotions is all that common, 
> and hence there is no need for short words or expressions to facilitate 
> such discussion.  Indeed, one could probably get by with "cinmo la'ezo 
> .ai." without need for any word invention at all. 
>
> > If it's {zukte} 
>
> It isn't. 
>
> >then we must clarify it's real meaning. 
>
> Emotional expressions do not necessarily have "meaning".  If they do, it 
> isn't entirely  clear that what I *mean* in expressing "ai" or "io" or 
> "iu" is necessarily what you *mean* if you express them. 
>
> > The question is pretty straightforward: How do I say "I intend ..."  not 
> > using {.ai} 
>
> You most certainly would not say that using "ai".  You express intention 
> using "ai".  You do not claim to intend using "ai". 
>
> > and having in mind it's clean meaning with no extra implications? 
>
> Attitudinals have not clean meaning, and aren't intended to.  Any 
> implications that they have are purely emotive. 
>
> lojbab 
>
>

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<br><br>On Sunday, August 12, 2012 10:34:10 PM UTC+4, lojbab wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
<br>&gt; On Friday, August 10, 2012 11:07:53 PM UTC+4, lojbab wrote:
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; If the difference between {.ai} and {.au} is so important then
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; why there
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; is no gismu for "intention"?
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; The intended gismu corresponding to intention was "platu", or perhaps
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; some compound thereof. &nbsp;I'll accept the possible use of zukte proposed
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; by someone else, though I think intention need not be purposive either.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&gt; {zukte} = "to intend"? the definition says nothing about that. It
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; should be clarified, that is changed.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; The gismu list is baselined. We haven't allowed changes merely for
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; clarity for nearly 20 years.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; Here is the lack of clarity, actually. If there is no equivalent of
<br>&gt; {.ai} in gismu space we must create it.
<br>
<br>I disagree. &nbsp;It is NOT essential that concepts be expressed in gismu, if 
<br>they can be expressed in reasonably short, and possibly metaphorical, lujvo.
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>How would you say "I was gonna..."?</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>One thing I did not mention last post: gismu, and brivla in general, 
<br>express claims. &nbsp;Attitudinals do not express claims. &nbsp;The set of claims 
<br>that we might express about the world does not match the set of emotions 
<br>that we might feel about the world. &nbsp;Yes, it would sometimes be useful 
<br>to have words to talk about those emotions, umm, unemotionally. &nbsp;But I 
<br>doubt that such analytical discussion of emotions is all that common, 
<br>and hence there is no need for short words or expressions to facilitate 
<br>such discussion. &nbsp;Indeed, one could probably get by with "cinmo la'ezo 
<br>.ai." without need for any word invention at all.
<br>
<br>&gt; If it's {zukte}
<br>
<br>It isn't.
<br>
<br>&gt;then we must clarify it's real meaning.
<br>
<br>Emotional expressions do not necessarily have "meaning". &nbsp;If they do, it 
<br>isn't entirely &nbsp;clear that what I *mean* in expressing "ai" or "io" or 
<br>"iu" is necessarily what you *mean* if you express them.
<br>
<br>&gt; The question is pretty straightforward: How do I say "I intend ..." &nbsp;not
<br>&gt; using {.ai}
<br>
<br>You most certainly would not say that using "ai". &nbsp;You express intention 
<br>using "ai". &nbsp;You do not claim to intend using "ai".
<br>
<br>&gt; and having in mind it's clean meaning with no extra implications?
<br>
<br>Attitudinals have not clean meaning, and aren't intended to. &nbsp;Any 
<br>implications that they have are purely emotive.
<br>
<br>lojbab
<br>
<br></blockquote>

<p></p>

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