Received: from mail-ob0-f189.google.com ([209.85.214.189]:46613) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1T0mMr-0005YK-GK; Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:35:13 -0700 Received: by obbun3 with SMTP id un3sf4436715obb.16 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:34:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=dGvMLT7nC/QMZWrFb0xTto5KQGwz68NBmHXimkT2OUg=; b=a7oRPBEN4qiMpwgMZSM8gBUzuBJIR57VcSCzfLXDx53q0zq+nGTE8xwj3Lj9OV+GPt PYLT+wQD7YalTWYN3yZhK9tLyOhmr9D+7wjBlTj0Bx2Ri64k5/HHdqJ4VB4YXuZ67dQv 1hcMMPkEeIuh7/BOinuh8pz1zQoZ6hL9wVp/M= Received: by 10.52.75.36 with SMTP id z4mr134503vdv.14.1344832498858; Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:34:58 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.223.77 with SMTP id ij13ls4311336vcb.1.gmail; Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.90.129 with SMTP id bw1mr1538844vdb.13.1344832498400; Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 21:34:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <84ba2caa-7e61-4915-b48e-153c6b784b9f@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <4bce1b85-1742-4819-bebf-3f3ffe9162e2@googlegroups.com> <1344787920.72396.YahooMailNeo@web184403.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <9c8f151a-c423-4d97-9f5c-d2c5fcade18c@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Direction of Rotation MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1364_11796768.1344832497687" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_1364_11796768.1344832497687 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Monday, August 13, 2012 8:15:22 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 10:09 PM, Gleki Arxokuna > > wrote: > >> >> >> On Sunday, August 12, 2012 8:17:20 PM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote: >>> >>> > But you still need to specify which thumb. >>> >>> The right one; that's why it's a right hand rule. >>> >>> > Is there no escape from this? >>> >>> No, there isn't; as aionus pointed out, you need a reference frame. >>> >> Unfortunately, it's not culturally neutral. >> > > Yes it is. It's lack of neutrality is not cultural. > OK, this the lack of symmetry. Why do we have zunle and pritu but dont have left-hand rule? > > >> If we have {zunle/pritu} we need two words for rotation too: left-hand >> and right-hand rule. >> > > No we don't. We choose one. The other is merely to'e. > > >> > ________________________________ >>> > From: .arpis. >>> > To: loj...@googlegroups.com >>> > Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 10:34 AM >>> > Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Direction of Rotation >>> > >>> > Right hand rules are a series of mnemonics (usually taught in physics) >>> > for remembering the arbitrary but consistent directions and sign >>> > choices. An example: If the current is flowing in the direction of >>> > your thumb, the electric field is in the direction of your fingers (on >>> > the right hand). >>> > Left hand rules can be used, but negate one sign (in the math >>> > representation) relative to the right hand rules. >>> > >>> > A useful right hand rule for lojban might be "the direction your >>> > fingers curl when you point your right thumb at your face" >>> > >>> > On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 3:04 AM, Gleki Arxokuna >>> > wrote: >>> >> So Robin entered right-hand rule to Gismu issues page. >>> >> >>> >> Can you provide some examples of it's usage with all places filled >>> in? Is >>> >> it >>> >> culturally-neutral (both left and right direction can be equally >>> used)? >>> >> >>> >> btw, lindar started this topic because he NEEDED a way of expressing >>> the >>> >> concept of "clockwise". >>> >> >>> >> doi loi jbobadna, where are the examples after all? >>> >> >>> >> On Sunday, August 12, 2012 12:34:00 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 10:11 AM, djandus wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>>> I don't have time to go over every post in this thread, especially >>> >>>> seeing >>> >>>> as it is rather full of people getting offended. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Has anyone brought up the right-hand rule? (for rotations) >>> >>>> >>> >>>> That is, for the wheels on a car, I could say: >>> >>>> {lo karce xislu cu carna zo'e lo zunle be lo karce} >>> >>>> because if you were to stick your right thumb to the car's left, >>> your >>> >>>> fingers would curl around in the direction of rotation. This is >>> >>>> consistent >>> >>>> with the overall standard of the right-hand rule, which comes up on >>> this >>> >>>> topic via the cross product definition of angular motion. That is, >>> if I >>> >>>> were >>> >>>> to be asked the "direction" of the angular motion, momentum, or >>> similar, >>> >>>> it >>> >>>> would be to the car's left. This is arbitrary, but completely >>> >>>> standardized >>> >>>> in physics. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I believe Pierre did, yes. >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Similarly, I would say that a top would be {carna zo'e lo gapru} if >>> it >>> >>>> were spinning counter-clockwise when viewed from above. If I were >>> to >>> >>>> instruct one to remove a screw, I could say {ko cargau lo klupe ku >>> zo'e >>> >>>> lo >>> >>>> bartu}, because the direction a screw moves and the direction it >>> needs >>> >>>> to >>> >>>> rotate correspond by the same standard right-hand rule. If I were >>> to use >>> >>>> the >>> >>>> carna2 spot, the axis would probably be defined with a direction as >>> >>>> "positive," after which I could then use {li ni'u}/{li ma'u} in >>> carna3. >>> >>>> (This would be the establisment of a coordinate system.) If the >>> axis was >>> >>>> given descriptively without a direction, then my other examples >>> >>>> illustrate >>> >>>> how I would deal with that. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Is there anything terribly wrong with these examples? >>> >>>> mu'o mi'e djos >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I don't see anything. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >>> >>> >> -- >>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups >>> >> "lojban" group. >>> >> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> >> https://groups.google.com/d/**msg/lojban/-/zs8HlDKVgFwJ. >>> >>> >> >>> >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> >> lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>> >> For more options, visit this group at >>> >> http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > mu'o mi'e .arpis. >>> > >>> > -- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups >>> > "lojban" group. >>> > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> > lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>> > For more options, visit this group at >>> > http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups >>> > "lojban" group. >>> > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> > lojban+un...@**googlegroups.com. >>> > For more options, visit this group at >>> > http://groups.google.com/**group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .arpis. >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/z54-hPRQNhMJ. >> >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/qoTBkMHaMpoJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. ------=_Part_1364_11796768.1344832497687 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Monday, August 13, 2012 8:15:22 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
On Sun, Aug = 12, 2012 at 10:09 PM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is..= .@gmail.com> wrote:


On Sunday, August 12, 2012 8:17:20 PM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote:> But you still need to specify whi= ch thumb.

The right one; that's why it's a right hand rule.

> Is there no escape from this?

No, there isn't; as aionus pointed out, you need a reference frame.
Unfortunately, it's not culturally neutral.

Yes it is. It's lack of neutrality is not cultural.=
OK, this the lack of symmetry. Why do we = have zunle and pritu but dont have left-hand rule? 
 
If we have {zunle/pritu} we need two words for rotation too: left-hand= and right-hand rule.

No we don't. We choose one= . The other is merely to'e.
 
> ___________________= _____________
> From: .arpis. <rpglover...@gmail.com>
> To: loj...@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 10:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Direction of Rotation
>
> Right hand rules are a series of mnemonics (usually taught in phys= ics)
> for remembering the arbitrary but consistent directions and sign
> choices. An example: If the current is flowing in the direction of
> your thumb, the electric field is in the direction of your fingers= (on
> the right hand).
> Left hand rules can be used, but negate one sign (in the math
> representation) relative to the right hand rules.
>
> A useful right hand rule for lojban might be "the direction your
> fingers curl when you point your right thumb at your face"
>
> On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 3:04 AM, Gleki Arxokuna
> <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> So Robin entered right-hand rule to Gismu issues page.
>>
>> Can you provide some examples of it's usage with all places fi= lled in? Is
>> it
>> culturally-neutral (both left and right direction can be equal= ly used)?
>>
>> btw, lindar started this topic because he NEEDED a way of expr= essing the
>> concept of "clockwise".
>>
>> doi loi jbobadna, where are the examples after all?
>>
>> On Sunday, August 12, 2012 12:34:00 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 10:11 AM, djandus <jan...@gm= ail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I don't have time to go over every post in this thread= , especially
>>>> seeing
>>>> as it is rather full of people getting offended.
>>>>
>>>> Has anyone brought up the right-hand rule? (for rotati= ons)
>>>>
>>>> That is, for the wheels on a car, I could say:
>>>> {lo karce xislu cu carna zo'e lo zunle be lo karce}
>>>> because if you were to stick your right thumb to the c= ar's left, your
>>>> fingers would curl around in the direction of rotation= . This is
>>>> consistent
>>>> with the overall standard of the right-hand rule, whic= h comes up on this
>>>> topic via the cross product definition of angular moti= on. That is, if I
>>>> were
>>>> to be asked the "direction" of the angular motion, mom= entum, or similar,
>>>> it
>>>> would be to the car's left. This is arbitrary, but com= pletely
>>>> standardized
>>>> in physics.
>>>
>>>
>>> I believe Pierre did, yes.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Similarly, I would say that a top would be {carna zo'e= lo gapru} if it
>>>> were spinning counter-clockwise when viewed from above= . If I were to
>>>> instruct one to remove a screw, I could say {ko cargau= lo klupe ku zo'e
>>>> lo
>>>> bartu}, because the direction a screw moves and the di= rection it needs
>>>> to
>>>> rotate correspond by the same standard right-hand rule= . If I were to use
>>>> the
>>>> carna2 spot, the axis would probably be defined with a= direction as
>>>> "positive," after which I could then use {li ni'u}/{li= ma'u} in carna3.
>>>> (This would be the establisment of a coordinate system= .) If the axis was
>>>> given descriptively without a direction, then my other= examples
>>>> illustrate
>>>> how I would deal with that.
>>>>
>>>> Is there anything terribly wrong with these examples?
>>>> mu'o mi'e djos
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't see anything.
>>>
>>> --
>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>>>
>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi pat= fu do zo'o
>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Go= ogle Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/= zs8HlDKVgFwJ.
>>
>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@goo= glegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den= .
>
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .arpis.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.= com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.= com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.



--=20
mu'o mi'e .arpis.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com= /d/msg/lojban/-/z54-hPRQNhMJ.

=20 To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+un...@googl= egroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/= lojban?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu= do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/qo= TBkMHaMpoJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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