Received: from mail-qc0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]:44265) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1T0xbE-0004eG-8o; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 09:34:48 -0700 Received: by qcac11 with SMTP id c11sf5216475qca.16 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 09:34:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=nSSO8Gh+fbo3iipF01UM0ZLPkhKFzLEyYYxCSHy+Yoc=; b=ieNWzWjpnuBafJyXGO8zagAwzbhk2sUpUFcMjafbDgDmyV2NWTI+DXWZsbOmcvun4M 8L7DowsvJAJ+V/iYhXidMnBKwojD/LB+9EuyezEmAch0P/MJ8jWc+/7KWJ8gTAjRWXOa V+UlDmv8l64EVlbTURcrUOXmEyhA+JYXkLSAU= Received: by 10.52.35.84 with SMTP id f20mr1044934vdj.3.1344875673014; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 09:34:33 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.21.207 with SMTP id x15ls4733944vde.1.gmail; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 09:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.71.7 with SMTP id q7mr1237670vdu.20.1344875672340; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 09:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 09:34:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <18c7070c-c70a-4757-bf21-f3116df92f05@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <63ffa7e7-c2cc-4b3b-b697-5184524be1af@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Sounding of the {ROTATE} gismu (was Direction of Rotation) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1663_7389795.1344875671988" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_1663_7389795.1344875671988 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Monday, August 13, 2012 12:36:19 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote: > > > > On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 1:55 AM, Gleki Arxokuna > > wrote: > >> So Robin made his decision about the place structure. >> Now let's find some sounding for it? >> >> How do major (and minor!) languages express this "clockwise" concept? >> >> I can't find anything special.=20 >> 1. "clock" metaphor. >> 2. Earth rotation >> 3. Screws >> >> So=20 >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clockwise >> >> Typical nuts, screws, bolts, and bottle caps are tightened (moved away= =20 >> from the observer) clockwise and loosened (moved towards the observer)= =20 >> counterclockwise, in accordance with the right-hand rule. >> >> In English screw, nut, bolt >> In Russian =D0=B2=D0=B8=D0=BD=D1=82, =D0=B3=D0=B0=D0=B9=D0=BA=D0=B0, =D0= =B1=D0=BE=D0=BB=D1=82 [vint, gaika, bolt] >> In Chinese =E8=9E=BA=E4=B8=9D=EF=BC=8C=E8=9E=BA=E6=AF=8D=EF=BC=8C=E8=9E= =BA=E6=A0=93 [Lu=C3=B3s=C4=AB, lu=C3=B3m=C7=94, lu=C3=B3shu=C4=81n] >> In Spanish tornillo, tuerca, perno >> In Arabic =D8=A7=D9=84=D9=85=D8=B3=D9=85=D8=A7=D8=B1=D8=8C =D9=88=D8=A7= =D9=84=D8=AC=D9=88=D8=B2=D8=8C =D9=88=D8=A7=D9=84=D8=AA=D8=B1=D8=A8=D8=A7= =D8=B3 >> And I suggest >> {bolto} =3D BOLT + LuO + TOrnillo >> It's not my final decision, though. >> >> * my instinct is to object, but I don't think I have any=20 >> actual good reasons, so: sure, that looks fine. :)* >> * (that is: using "screw" to mean "rotation" seems odd to me,= =20 >> but I understand your arguments)* >> >> >> Another option is the Earth. Which is even romantic. But why should we= =20 >> stick to the North? Just because we are living in the north hemisphere?= =20 >> What australian jbopre would say? >> >> So these are my thoughts. >> .a'o you find other solutions. >> > > As far as the word to use, {bolto} seems fine to me. Heck, we could use= =20 > more ends-in-o words in Lojban, anyway. > Sorry, I've changed my mind. Specifying "clockwise" with a metaphor of the Sun that is moving on the sky= =20 is adequate in the northern hemisphere *only*. Yes, it's not fair. *But why not directly refer to what hemisphere we are in ?!!* 1. In the Northern hemisphere the Sun and the stars move clockwise east to= =20 south to west. Therefore, it can be called the Southern Rotating Sky. 2. In the Southern hemisphere the situation is the opposite. Now about sounding. I'll do something which *won't follow the algorithm of creating gismu*. You= =20 must understand me. I'm creating a *new complex concept*. I want something= =20 common for *at least one nation*, Chinese nation. English and Spanish words= =20 are too long. And I don't want to average sounds of 6 languages because=20 it's me who suggests this concept. And it would be *stupid to average=20 something that is absent *in those languages. So in Mandarin nan2 - south ri4 - the Sun (some may argue that it's actually pronounced as [zhi] but as= =20 in lojban it's {solri} I'll retain it as [r]) zhuan4 - to revolve [pronounced actually as {djuan} in lojban notation] i.e we have "nan-ri-juan" which (no surprise) results in {nanju}. For southern hemisphere we have Northern Rotating Sky and counterclockwise= =20 movement. bei3 - north=20 "bei-ri-juan" results in {berju/berja}. ({berju} is better as it ends in=20 the same letters as {nanju}). Therefore, I suggest using {nanju} for clockwise. {berju} should be saved as a reserved word for future generations (who=20 knows what they'll say? We must reserve some space for them). Until then=20 for counterclockwise we can use modifications of {nanju}. Is it neutral? Yes. Lojban was created on the Earth. Therefore solar=20 metaphor is nevertheless a global metaphor for the whole planet. On other= =20 planets sapient creatures may not even be able to pronounce our phonemes so= =20 they'll create lojban clone with different sounding. No conflict here. Objections to my proposal in general? > More pertinent to me is the actual place structure, definition, of the=20 > word. My opinion is that we definitely need a place for identification of= =20 > the 'top', and there may be occasions where there is a need to specify th= e=20 > rotational axis, but I expect most often not, one of the two directions= =20 > should be the keyword itself- I don't care which one- with the other bein= g=20 > {to'e bolto}, and I don't think the word needs anything else. > > --=20 > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lo= jban/-/BgQpNcW97VUJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. ------=_Part_1663_7389795.1344875671988 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Monday, August 13, 2012 12:36:19 PM UTC+4, aionys wrote:

On = Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 1:55 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <g= leki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

I can't find anything special. 
1. "clock" metaphor.
2. Earth rotation
3. Screws

So&n= bsp;
=
Typical nuts, screws, bolts, and bottle caps are tightened (moved away= from the observer) clockwise and loosened (moved towards the observer) cou= nterclockwise, in accordance with the right-hand rule.
In English screw, nut, bolt
In R= ussian =D0=B2=D0=B8=D0=BD=D1=82, =D0=B3=D0=B0=D0=B9=D0=BA=D0=B0, =D0=B1=D0= =BE=D0=BB=D1=82 [vint, gaika, bolt]
In Chinese =E8=9E=BA=E4= =B8=9D=EF=BC=8C=E8=9E=BA=E6=AF=8D=EF=BC=8C=E8=9E=BA=E6=A0=93 [Lu=C3=B3s=C4= =AB, lu=C3=B3m=C7=94, lu=C3=B3shu=C4=81n]
In Spanish  tornil= lo, tuerca, perno
In Arabic =D8=A7=D9=84=D9=85=D8=B3=D9=85=D8=A7=D8=B1=D8=8C =D9=88=D8= =A7=D9=84=D8=AC=D9=88=D8=B2=D8=8C =D9=88=D8=A7=D9=84=D8=AA=D8=B1=D8=A8=D8= =A7=D8=B3
And I suggest
{bolto} =3D BOLT + LuO + TOrnil= lo
It's not my final decision, though.
<rlpowell> my instinct is to object, but I don't think I= have any actual good reasons, so: sure, that looks fine. :)
<rlpowell> (that is: using "screw" to mean "rotation" s= eems odd to me, but I understand your arguments)

Another option is the Earth. Wh= ich is even romantic. But why should we stick to the North? Just because we= are living in the north hemisphere? What australian jbopre would say?

So these are my thoughts.
.a'o you find= other solutions.

As far as the word to use,= {bolto} seems fine to me. Heck, we could use more ends-in-o words in Lojba= n, anyway.
Sorry, I've changed my mind.

Specifying "clockwise" with a metaphor of the Sun th= at is moving on the sky is adequate in the northern hemisphere only.= Yes, it's not fair.
But why not directly refer to what hemisp= here we are in ?!!

1. In the Northern hemisphe= re the Sun and the stars move clockwise east to south to west. Therefore, i= t can be called the Southern Rotating Sky.
2. In the Southern hem= isphere the situation is the opposite.

Now about s= ounding.
I'll do something which won't follow the algorithm of= creating gismu. You must understand me. I'm creating a new complex = concept. I want something common for at least one nation, Chines= e nation. English and Spanish words are too long. And I don't want to avera= ge sounds of 6 languages because it's me who suggests this concept. And it = would be stupid to average something that is absent in those languag= es.

So in Mandarin
nan2 - south
ri4 - the Sun (some may argue that it's actually pronounced as [zhi] but = as in lojban it's {solri} I'll retain it as [r])
zhuan4 - to = revolve [pronounced actually as {djuan} in lojban notation]
i= .e we have "nan-ri-juan"

which (no surprise) resul= ts in {nanju}.
For southern hemisphere we have Northern Rotating = Sky and counterclockwise movement.
bei3 - north 
"bei-ri-juan" results in {berju/berja}. ({berju} is better as it en= ds in the same letters as {nanju}).

Therefore,= I suggest using {nanju} for clockwise.
{berju} should be saved a= s a reserved word for future generations (who knows what they'll say? We mu= st reserve some space for them). Until then for counterclockwise we can use= modifications of {nanju}.
Is it neutral? Yes. Lojban was created= on the Earth. Therefore solar metaphor is nevertheless a global metaphor f= or the whole planet. On other planets sapient creatures may not even be abl= e to pronounce our phonemes so they'll create lojban clone with different s= ounding. No conflict here.

Objections to my propos= al in general?



More pertinent to me is the actual place structure, definition, of the = word. My opinion is that we definitely need a place for identification of t= he 'top', and there may be occasions where there is a need to specify the r= otational axis, but I expect most often not, one of the two directions shou= ld be the keyword itself- I don't care which one- with the other being {to'= e bolto}, and I don't think the word needs anything else.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo piln= o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, = I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/Bg= QpNcW97VUJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
------=_Part_1663_7389795.1344875671988--