Received: from mail-gh0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]:64223) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1T1ALs-00048r-QS; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:12:00 -0700 Received: by ghbf16 with SMTP id f16sf29572ghb.16 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:11:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=8e0JHPh9mMyQlFiGZqS0M1s7eW3bDj/13hTpjtp5b9s=; b=f9XuDOLwrGcF1kPzYc3khJIDV//AZAfDhaScO2H/wkhgMGRw42kN3Yh37KAdndeCZb DjgwHUAFEDkXKwh3lNIqIHrhI8u0K/L6Z76jsawoOduZc28DrHIsCvXiEf8hJf5v4c9c EnEYf64MVS/M37XfI8l7Vbi2r08llpNLNmapE= Received: by 10.236.186.34 with SMTP id v22mr2522758yhm.9.1344924694218; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:11:34 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.236.78.164 with SMTP id g24ls188193yhe.6.gmail; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.105.30 with SMTP id h30mr2270954anm.17.1344924693686; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.105.30 with SMTP id h30mr2270953anm.17.1344924693667; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gh0-f174.google.com (mail-gh0-f174.google.com [209.85.160.174]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i27si456590yhe.4.2012.08.13.23.11.33 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of maikxlx@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.174 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.174; Received: by mail-gh0-f174.google.com with SMTP id r11so29927ghr.33 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:11:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.222.170 with SMTP id qn10mr21207321pbc.114.1344924693420; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.213.67 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:11:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <50255C09.10805@lojban.org> <1344701600.97921.YahooMailNeo@web184405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5027FFA0.5000700@lojban.org> Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 02:11:33 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] {.au}/{djica}={.ai}/{?}. No gismu for intention From: "Mike S." To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: maikxlx@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of maikxlx@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.174 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=maikxlx@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b2e7bf299d9d404c733aec6 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --047d7b2e7bf299d9d404c733aec6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas wro= te: > > On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 4:10 PM, Bob LeChevalier, President and > Founder - LLG wrote: > > > > (by my understandiong, "irrealis" means > > that the attitudinal is irrelevant to the truth-functional value of the > > proposition) > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrealis_mood > > "Irrealis moods are the main set of grammatical moods that indicate > that a certain situation or action is not known to have happened as > the speaker is talking." > > Some UIs (e.g. ".a'o", "la'a", "da'i", "xu") give a proposition an > irrealis mood, which means that it is not being claimed by the speaker > as something known to have happened: > > .a'o la djan pu tolcri lo jaspu be dy > "Hopefully, John found his passport." > > la'a la djan pu tolcri lo jaspu be dy > "Probably, John found his passport." > > da'i la djan pu tolcri lo jaspu be dy > "Let's assume John found his passport." > > xu la djan pu tolcri lo jaspu be dy > "Did John find his passport." > > Those are not claims that John did find his passport. The speaker > doesn't know whether he did or not, that's why an irrealis marker is > used. > > > Emotions are NOT "logical", nor truth-functional. Most people probably > > prefer it that way, even if it makes them sometimes seem a bit > delusional. > > So long as we can clearly distinguish between the claim and the emotion= al > > expression, this causes no problem in communication. > > It should be pointed out that most UIs are not used for emotional > expression, although some of them can probably be turned into > expressions of emotion by adding "ro'i". > It might be worth pointing out that, if I am correct, UI including irrealis UI can interact in more complicated ways than just over whole bridi, as in a coordinated sumti, presumably affecting meaning in relatively straightforward ways. la djan .e .a'o la .alis. pu klama "John, and hopefully Alice, went." ... means John went but doesn't mean Alice went, if I have it right. la djan. pu klama .ije .a'o la .alis. pu klama "John went, and hopefully Alice went." ... is the logically equivalent expanded form, I believe. Can one say something like "John hopefully, but Alice [definitely], went."? My guess would be: la djan .a'o .e la .alis. pu klama --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --047d7b2e7bf299d9d404c733aec6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Jorge L= lamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrealis_mood

"Irrealis moods are the main set of grammatical moods that indicate that a certain situation or action is not known to have happened as
the speaker is talking."

Some UIs (e.g. ".a'o", "la'a", "da'i&q= uot;, "xu") give a proposition an
irrealis mood, which means that it is not being claimed by the speaker
as something known to have happened:

.a'o la djan pu tolcri lo jaspu be dy
"Hopefully, John found his passport."

la'a la djan pu tolcri lo jaspu be dy
"Probably, John found his passport."

da'i la djan pu tolcri lo jaspu be dy
"Let's assume John found his passport."

xu la djan pu tolcri lo jaspu be dy
"Did John find his passport."

Those are not claims that John did find his passport. The speaker
doesn't know whether he did or not, that's why an irrealis marker i= s
used.

> Emotions are NOT "logical", nor truth-functional. =A0Most pe= ople probably
> prefer it that way, even if it makes them sometimes seem a bit delusio= nal.
> So long as we can clearly distinguish between the claim and the emotio= nal
> expression, this causes no problem in communication.

It should be pointed out that most UIs are not used for emotional
expression, although some of them can probably be turned into
expressions of emotion by adding "ro'i".

It might be worth pointing out that, if I am correct, UI including ir= realis UI can interact in more complicated ways than just over whole bridi,= as in a coordinated sumti, presumably affecting meaning in relatively stra= ightforward ways.

la djan .e .a'o la .alis. pu klama
"John, and hopefully Ali= ce, went."

... means John went but doesn't mean Alice went,= if I have it right.

la djan. pu klama .ije .a'o la .alis. pu kl= ama
"John went, and hopefully Alice went."

... is the logicall= y equivalent expanded form, I believe.

Can one say something like &q= uot;John hopefully, but Alice [definitely], went."?=A0 My guess would = be:
la djan .a'o .e la .alis. pu klama




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