Received: from mail-lpp01m010-f61.google.com ([209.85.215.61]:65149) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1T1B22-0004m0-QJ; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:55:25 -0700 Received: by lage12 with SMTP id e12sf16059lag.16 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:55:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=f1jR0Kf5Y9k5s6Df0Drbv7oB7sAM1XMoazCnkxwAXyU=; b=y2LdCfM1DAbNm59TC0UuXIM56OtGVF89zp8Ij6/WqGk1B0y2Dhtgl9V/dT/S73WGXF ctaF2ernrjkoLoiDdTUBIMCAoc/Dtp5dc1WNeJC4IX2nwkCgkRPS43nS1CtIx5rOZ6OO wkKAblIs3CFeAaYaY+jMUKyTq5sbg8a6LvV/U= Received: by 10.204.153.214 with SMTP id l22mr556635bkw.3.1344927306213; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:55:06 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.130.131 with SMTP id t3ls66771bks.9.gmail; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.128.207 with SMTP id l15mr1686721bks.4.1344927305264; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.128.207 with SMTP id l15mr1686718bks.4.1344927305017; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f172.google.com (mail-lb0-f172.google.com [209.85.217.172]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e23si405024bks.0.2012.08.13.23.55.04 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.172 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.172; Received: by lbbgg6 with SMTP id gg6so98148lbb.17 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:55:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.152.131.42 with SMTP id oj10mr11119077lab.49.1344927304566; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.152.123.19 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Aug 2012 23:55:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201208100717.52329.phma@phma.optus.nu> <201208102342.13849.phma@phma.optus.nu> <8ccd89cb-defa-4d40-a77f-e0029180fc5f@googlegroups.com> <26a88634-94ee-4912-a307-0e200d75e81e@googlegroups.com> <9d898abb-f2c8-4c66-aaf3-fbc0af353d78@googlegroups.com> Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 00:55:04 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Direction of Rotation From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.172 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0430896e3cc93804c7344a10 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --f46d0430896e3cc93804c7344a10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 12:53 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 12:44 AM, Gleki Arxokuna < > gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:37:32 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 12:10 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: >>> >>>> So please have a look at my suggestion once again. >>>> aionys was right, it's not our old {carna}. It's something new. >>>> Robin asked "Yes, but what about objects that don't have clear . >>>> e.g. imagine a rotating rod". >>>> >>>> In this case we must define a plane in the middle of the axis >>>> perpendicular to the axis. >>>> Then we have line-of-sight above the plane spreading to the plane. >>>> In the image attached we can see that according to what the eye (marke= d >>>> with "line of sight") sees >>>> the rod is rotating to the right. >>>> >>>> So in such gismu we need a place for direction of rotation filled with >>>> "zunle/pritu". If this placed is not filled then the gismu would mean >>>> "rotating in general". >>>> >>> >>> Incorrect. Under no circumstances do we need a place for direction of >>> rotation *if we define one of the two only possible directions as the >>> keyword*. >>> >>> For example, if we make the definition be "x1 is rotating >>> counter-clockwise viewed from orientation x2 about rotational axis/axes >>> (set if multiple) x3", than the gismu (I'm going to use "gutni") can me= an >>> all of the following: >>> >>> gutni: counter-clockwise >>> to'e gutni / tolgutni : clockwise >>> no'e gutni : not rotating (neither clockwise nor counter-clockwise >>> rotation is occurring) >>> na'e gutni : not counter-clockwise (either clockwise or no rotation is >>> occurring.) >>> na'e tolgutni : not clockwise (either counter-clockwise or no rotation >>> is occurring.) >>> >>> All that is needed for the word is a default direction, which can be >>> changed to the other with to'e and for reasons of historical inertia sh= ould >>> be counter-clockwise, a place to identify the 'face' when it isn't obvi= ous >>> (x2 in the above), and the axis/axes about which the rotation happens i= f it >>> isn't the typical axis. >>> >> > >> No. Your suggestion is not universal. Lojban usually allows ambiguous >> expression >> It's not possible to say "rotating" without specifying in what direction >> it rotates. >> > > Which is why you put the default direction in the keyword. Unless of > course, you mean it IS possible. > > >> You need one more case: >> "rotates either clockwise or counterclockwise" >> > > {ti gutni jonai to'e gutni} > "This is rotating either clockwise or counter-clockwise." > Or even: {ti carna} "This is turning." > This is what was discussed in the chat. >> > >> > On Saturday, August 11, 2012 12:45:34 PM UTC+4, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: >>>>> >>>>> May be I missed something in this conversation but (lindar will >>>>> confirm) I didn't want to join this discussion yesterday until I coul= d >>>>> figure out everything myself. I even said in chat "Think 100 times be= fore >>>>> suggesting any new gismu". >>>>> Still la lindar posted eir message to the list and I had to reply to >>>>> it. >>>>> So let's get back to business. >>>>> The scrutiny shows that {carna} has everything that we need. >>>>> >>>>> Here is my solution. >>>>> 1. Take a clock from the wall. >>>>> 2. Put it on the floor. >>>>> 3. Sit on top of the clock. Just in the middle of the clock! Be >>>>> careful not to break something in the mechanism. >>>>> 4. Look at the hands (pointers) of the clock. >>>>> 5. See? They are moving to the right of your point in space! Every >>>>> atom of the hand of the clock is moving to the right. >>>>> 6. Now stand up and put the clock to the wall. >>>>> 7. Wow! The hand is no longer moving to the right. It's moving >>>>> clockwise! >>>>> >>>>> So {carna fi lo pritu} means "rotate clockwise". >>>>> >>>>> Now what is {se carna}? >>>>> >>>>> Here we have a minor problem. >>>>> When you were sitting on the clock you were the upper part of the >>>>> axis, namely the part sticking out of the front of the clock. >>>>> By the word "front" I mean that part that has digits painted on it an= d >>>>> hands moving. >>>>> What is "front"? What is "face"? >>>>> These are two-dimensional but one-side objects (like M=F6bius band or >>>>> something). >>>>> You can't look at my *face* from the other side. You will simply see >>>>> the back of my head. >>>>> >>>>> This is what we need. >>>>> {carna lo crane lo pritu}. >>>>> >>>>> May be the definition of {carna} is really not an ideal one but I no >>>>> longer support any new gismu for "clockwise". >>>>> It's better to clarify {carna} definition, may be change it to >>>>> *x1 turns or rotates around from the viewpoint (reference frame) of >>>>> x2 in direction x3* >>>>> >>>>> *This has also to do with the concept of the "line of sight".* >>>>> Humans have it and this is what "reference frame" usually refers to. >>>>> We look forward and see the hands of the clock moving. >>>>> Even if we are blind we have such body orientation (including mouth, >>>>> nose, limbs etc) so that we are still oriented forward. >>>>> *What if we had eyes on our backs:* {pritu} has also "frame of >>>>> reference" place. Therefore, two ref-frames annihilate (sumti/sumti= =3D1) and >>>>> we are culturally neutral again. >>>>> >>>>> You might argue: what if spiders that have eyes on their limbs learnt >>>>> Lojban? Would that be culturaly neutral? >>>>> We must think about them too! >>>>> The answer is pretty clear. >>>>> If you have an eye on your leg please use reference frame and specify >>>>> which of your multiple eyes is looking at the clock. >>>>> >>>>> *Still we have "line of sight" left. I think that every human or >>>>> probably every animal has such feature. I can't imagine any creature >>>>> without "lines-of-sensory-input". All sensory organs work that way. >>>>> Therefore, I state that it's culturally neutral.* >>>>> >>>>> I haven't read all the conversation. So may be somebody has already >>>>> understood this. >>>>> Thanks for your attention anyway. >>>>> >>>>> On Saturday, August 11, 2012 10:29:28 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 9:58 PM, Jonathan Jones wr= ote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 9:42 PM, Pierre Abbat = wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Friday 10 August 2012 16:02:46 Jonathan Jones wrote: >>>>>>>> > On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Pierre Abbat < >>>>>>>> ph...@phma.optus.nu> wrote: >>>>>>>> > > On Friday 10 August 2012 03:32:53 la .lindar. wrote: >>>>>>>> > > > What sort of thing would you put in the x3 of carna that >>>>>>>> would seem >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > valid. >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > lo terdi cu carna lo jendu lo berti .i lo junla cu carna lo >>>>>>>> jendu lo >>>>>>>> > > bitmu .i >>>>>>>> > > lo xislu be lo karce cu carna lo jendu lo zunle be lo karce >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > mu'omi'e .pier. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Those examples don't work, because in each of them you give a >>>>>>>> reference >>>>>>>> > point for the x3, and in none of them do you give a direction. >>>>>>>> (That said, >>>>>>>> > if carna's definition was the one I talked ab out last night, al= l >>>>>>>> of them >>>>>>>> > would be perfect examples.) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The direction is from the clock, along its axis, into the wall, >>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>> corresponds to a direction of rotation by the convention of holdin= g >>>>>>>> the right >>>>>>>> hand so that its thumb is along the axis and the other fingers cur= l >>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>> direction of rotation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, that's not what I mean. You don't specify which direction the >>>>>>> objects are rotating. The "direction" you're talking about is the r= eference >>>>>>> point. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Okay, wait, I missed the "...corresponds to a direction of >>>>>> rotation...." the first time I read it. Still, your x3's only work i= f you >>>>>> follow that convention, which requires you to /know/ it in the first= place. >>>>>> I don't know how known it is, but I'd certainly not heard of it befo= re you >>>>>> mentioned it, which leads me to believe "very well" is not the answe= r. >>>>>> >>>>>> It is a neat way to shove the reference point and direction of >>>>>> rotation together, even though it always means "counterclockwise". >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>>>>> >>>>>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>>>>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/*= * >>>> msg/lojban/-/mcZMDxumuPUJ >>>> . >>>> >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+un...@** >>>> googlegroups.com. >>>> >>>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >>>> group/lojban?hl=3Den . >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/IB91wZqhqawJ. >> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --f46d0430896e3cc93804c7344a10 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 12:53 AM, Jonathan Jones= <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Aug 14, 2012 at 12:44 = AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wro= te:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:37:32 AM UTC+4, aionys wrote:
On Tue, Aug 14, 20= 12 at 12:10 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is...@gmail.c= om> wrote:
So please have a look at my suggestion =A0once again.
aionys was right,= it's not our old {carna}. It's something new.
Robin aske= d "Yes, but what about objects that don't have clear <face>.= e.g. imagine a rotating rod".

In this case we must define a plane in the middle of th= e axis perpendicular to the axis.
Then we have line-of-sight abov= e the plane spreading to the plane.
In the image attached we can = see that according to what the eye (marked with "line of sight") = sees
the rod is rotating to the right.

So in such = gismu we need a place for direction of rotation filled with "zunle/pri= tu". If this placed is not filled then the gismu would mean "rota= ting in general".

Incorrect. Under no circumstances do we need a place = for direction of rotation if we define one of the two only possible dire= ctions as the keyword.

For example, if we make the definition be= "x1 is rotating counter-clockwise viewed from orientation x2 about ro= tational axis/axes (set if multiple) x3", than the gismu (I'm goin= g to use "gutni") can mean all of the following:

gutni: counter-clockwise
to'e gutni / tolgutni : clockwise
no= 'e gutni : not rotating (neither clockwise nor counter-clockwise rotati= on is occurring)
na'e gutni : not counter-clockwise (either clockwis= e or no rotation is occurring.)
na'e tolgutni : not clockwise (either counter-clockwise or no rotation = is occurring.)

All that is needed for the word is a default directio= n, which can be changed to the other with to'e and for reasons of histo= rical inertia should be counter-clockwise, a place to identify the 'fac= e' when it isn't obvious (x2 in the above), and the axis/axes about= which the rotation happens if it isn't the typical axis.
=A0
No. You= r suggestion is not universal. Lojban usually allows ambiguous expression= =A0
It's not possible to say "rotating" without spe= cifying in what direction it rotates.

Which is why you put the default direction in t= he keyword. Unless of course, you mean it IS possible.
=A0
You need one more case:
"rotates either clockwise o= r counterclockwise"

{ti gutni jonai t= o'e gutni}
"This is rotating either clockwise or counter-clockw= ise."

Or even:
{ti carna}
"This is t= urning."
=A0
This = is what was discussed in the chat.=A0
=A0
On Saturday, August 11, 2012 12:45:34 PM UTC+4, Gleki Arxokuna wrot= e:
May be I missed something in this conversation but (lindar will confirm) I = didn't want to join this discussion yesterday until I could figure out = everything myself. I even said in chat "Think 100 times before suggest= ing any new gismu".
Still la lindar posted eir message to the list and I had to reply to it.
So let's get back to business.
The scrutiny shows tha= t {carna} has everything that we need.

Here is= my solution.
1. Take a clock from the wall.
2. Put it on the floor.
=
3. Sit on top of the clock. Just in the middle of the clock! Be carefu= l not to break something in the mechanism.
4. Look at the hands (= pointers) of the clock.
5. See? They are moving to the right of your=A0point in space! Every a= tom of the hand of the clock is moving to the right.
6. Now stand= up and put the clock to the wall.
7. Wow! The hand is no longer = moving to the right. It's moving clockwise!

So {carna fi lo pritu} means "rotate clockwise&quo= t;.

Now what is {se carna}?

Here we have a minor problem.
When you were sitting on the clo= ck you were the upper part of the axis, namely the part sticking out of the= front of the clock.
By the word "front" I mean that part that has digits painted= on it and hands moving.
What is "front"? What is "= ;face"?
These are two-dimensional but one-side objects (like= M=F6bius band or something).
You can't look at my face from the other side. You will sim= ply see the back of my head.

This is what we need.=
{carna lo crane lo pritu}.

May be the d= efinition of {carna} is really not an ideal one but I no longer support any= new gismu for "clockwise".
It's better to clarify {carna} definition, may be =A0change it to= =A0
x1 turns or rotates around from the viewpoint (reference frame) o= f x2 in direction x3

This has also to d= o with the concept of the "line of sight".
Humans have it and this is what "reference frame" usually re= fers to.
We look forward and see the hands of the clock moving.
Even if we are blind we have such body orientation (including mout= h, nose, limbs etc) so that we are still oriented forward.
What if we had eyes on our backs:=A0{pritu} has also "fram= e of reference" place. Therefore, two ref-frames annihilate (sumti/sum= ti=3D1) and we are culturally neutral again.

You m= ight argue: what if spiders that have eyes on their limbs learnt Lojban? Wo= uld that be culturaly neutral?
We must think about them too!
The answer is pretty clear.
If you have an eye on your leg please use reference frame and speci= fy which of your multiple eyes is looking at the clock.

Still we have "line of sight" left. I think that every hu= man or probably every animal has such feature. I can't imagine any crea= ture without "lines-of-sensory-input". All sensory organs work th= at way. Therefore, I state that it's culturally neutral.

I haven't read all the conversation. So may be some= body has already understood this.
Thanks for your attention anywa= y.

On Saturday, August 11, 2012 10:29:28 AM UTC+4, aionys wro= te:
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 9:58 PM, Jonathan Jones = <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 9:42 PM, Pierre Abb= at <ph...@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
On Friday 10 August 2012 16:02:46 Jonathan Jones wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Pierre Abbat <ph...@phma.optus.= nu> wrote:
> > On Friday 10 August 2012 03:32:53 la .lindar. wrote:
> > > What sort of thing would you put in the x3 of carna that wou= ld seem
> >
> > valid.
> >
> > lo terdi cu carna lo jendu lo berti .i lo junla cu carna lo jendu= lo
> > bitmu .i
> > lo xislu be lo karce cu carna lo jendu lo zunle be lo karce
> >
> > mu'omi'e .pier.
>
> Those examples don't work, because in each of them you give a refe= rence
> point for the x3, and in none of them do you give a direction. (That s= aid,
> if carna's definition was the one I talked ab out last night, all = of them
> would be perfect examples.)

The direction is from the clock, along its axis, into the wall, which=
corresponds to a direction of rotation by the convention of holding the rig= ht
hand so that its thumb is along the axis and the other fingers curl in the<= br> direction of rotation.

No, that's not what I mean. You don't speci= fy which direction the objects are rotating. The "direction" you&= #39;re talking about is the reference point.

Okay, wait, I missed the "...corresponds to a direction of r= otation...." the first time I read it. Still, your x3's only work = if you follow that convention, which requires you to /know/ it in the first= place. I don't know how known it is, but I'd certainly not heard o= f it before you mentioned it, which leads me to believe "very well&quo= t; is not the answer.

It is a neat way to shove the reference point and direction of rotation= together, even though it always means "counterclockwise".

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cm= ima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com= /d/msg/lojban/-/mcZMDxumuPUJ.

=20 To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+un...@google= groups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/grou= p/lojban?hl=3Den.



--
= mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa = bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am yo= ur father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com= /d/msg/lojban/-/IB91wZqhqawJ.

=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

= .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'= o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )




--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--f46d0430896e3cc93804c7344a10--