Received: from mail-ob0-f189.google.com ([209.85.214.189]:41712)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCJbznvHdFRDZ-qmBBRoEr0qSpg@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1T1K1f-0002eF-CT; Tue, 14 Aug 2012 09:31:39 -0700
Received: by obbun3 with SMTP id un3sf535884obb.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Tue, 14 Aug 2012 09:31:21 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from
         :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=Oi0kLoBem2T71uZx9v+NOqrNlWnMt/23KEYYiXAmY8E=;
        b=OzEAoqtJBsNfKqk8SxHvsSZcbHEEPBtKr1YHbG14bEULt6lA3UKFcocBZAYmP5j7rl
         7LTgKbXMtdV3hOoIKDfb7vwLe5+PaBvyBkZzVXo12xceyWSglYG4Pjeb0YnhfQ9TITe6
         0b8Vf26SD3C/fVAKVqKTKJOJ6ip1j80XvESHw=
Received: by 10.224.96.19 with SMTP id f19mr3670357qan.10.1344961881016;
        Tue, 14 Aug 2012 09:31:21 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.229.195.214 with SMTP id ed22ls983437qcb.7.gmail; Tue, 14 Aug
 2012 09:31:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.236.200.194 with SMTP id z42mr10073040yhn.13.1344961880528;
        Tue, 14 Aug 2012 09:31:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.236.200.194 with SMTP id z42mr10073039yhn.13.1344961880510;
        Tue, 14 Aug 2012 09:31:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-gh0-f177.google.com (mail-gh0-f177.google.com [209.85.160.177])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n2si298403anp.3.2012.08.14.09.31.20
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Tue, 14 Aug 2012 09:31:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.177;
Received: by mail-gh0-f177.google.com with SMTP id f20so845969ghb.22
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Tue, 14 Aug 2012 09:31:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.50.94.135 with SMTP id dc7mr12795372igb.37.1344961880125; Tue,
 14 Aug 2012 09:31:20 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.64.20.11 with HTTP; Tue, 14 Aug 2012 09:30:49 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <CAGO2uOPcMjNogyRO8Wi-v+swm60xLR8X21=aykzmcMOh51e0-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGO2uOPcMjNogyRO8Wi-v+swm60xLR8X21=aykzmcMOh51e0-g@mail.gmail.com>
From: MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 12:30:49 -0400
Message-ID: <CAHiXx=MdoEyfmncdN5znyWJ8FSDtkAiq6b-dbD1gLZrhf2EHQw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Are Natlang the best case for entropy in communication ?
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.177 as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f234bd919f0be04c73c5734
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Spam_score: 0.0
X-Spam_score_int: 0
X-Spam_bar: /

--e89a8f234bd919f0be04c73c5734
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 5:52 AM, Escape Landsome <escaaape@gmail.com> wrote:

> Coi rodo,
>
> in a noisy verbal interaction, for instance, on a phone call (but this
> applies to any case, indeed), it is good for communication that the
> elements of signal can be easily distinguished, so as to avoid
> reception errors.
>
> This is achieved by natlangs, by sparsing all the existing words (for
> instance, adverbs) in such a "morphologic space" that has very few
> collisions.   For instance, the english words for "few", "many", "a
> lot" and "none" are phonologically very different of each other, so
> there is little chance you could confuse them by hearing them on a
> deficient phone.
>
> But this is not the case of lojban words, for instance so'a, so'e,
> so'i, so'o etc. are very near of each other, and, assuming you don't
> hear well the last vowel, you could infer something very far from what
> was intended by the other speaker.
>
> So, is not that something that is annoying ?
>
> Like French "dessous" ('underneath') vs. "dessus" ('over'). The only
difference is [u] vs. [y]. Apparently the French have no problem with it
(or do they?), but it seems like a big problem to me.

stevo

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.


--e89a8f234bd919f0be04c73c5734
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 5:52 AM, Escape =
Landsome <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:escaaape@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">escaaape@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">

Coi rodo,<br>
<br>
in a noisy verbal interaction, for instance, on a phone call (but this<br>
applies to any case, indeed), it is good for communication that the<br>
elements of signal can be easily distinguished, so as to avoid<br>
reception errors.<br>
<br>
This is achieved by natlangs, by sparsing all the existing words (for<br>
instance, adverbs) in such a &quot;morphologic space&quot; that has very fe=
w<br>
collisions. =A0 For instance, the english words for &quot;few&quot;, &quot;=
many&quot;, &quot;a<br>
lot&quot; and &quot;none&quot; are phonologically very different of each ot=
her, so<br>
there is little chance you could confuse them by hearing them on a<br>
deficient phone.<br>
<br>
But this is not the case of lojban words, for instance so&#39;a, so&#39;e,<=
br>
so&#39;i, so&#39;o etc. are very near of each other, and, assuming you don&=
#39;t<br>
hear well the last vowel, you could infer something very far from what<br>
was intended by the other speaker.<br>
<br>
So, is not that something that is annoying ?<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br></font></span></blockquo=
te><div>Like French &quot;dessous&quot; (&#39;underneath&#39;) vs. &quot;de=
ssus&quot; (&#39;over&#39;). The only difference is [u] vs. [y]. Apparently=
 the French have no problem with it (or do they?), but it seems like a big =
problem to me.=A0</div>

<div><br></div><div>stevo=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span cl=
ass=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
--<br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban%2Bun=
subscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
For more options, visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/g=
roup/lojban?hl=3Den" target=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/group/lojba=
n?hl=3Den</a>.<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.<br />



--e89a8f234bd919f0be04c73c5734--