= May be we should perform analysis of Lojban corpus and tatoeba sentences?

--And.

Gleki Arxokuna, On 05/08/2012 18:16:
> Continuation of http://www.lojban.org/tiki/mu'ei
> Note:This topic should be analysed from the Trivalent logic point = of view as the latter also deals with Possible worlds.
> But let's get started with more simple stuff.
> mu'ei has always been a problem for me. Although the wiki was simp= le in describing it I felt something incomplete or illogical there.
>
> Luckily, Lojbanistan has some authority and one can always ask how= others solve the same problem.
> Here is the log.
>
> /<gleki> Do you use mu'ei in real life? Do you= have any thoughts of making a more generalised abstraction that will inclu= de both mu'ei and ba'oi?/
> /<robin>I did for a bit and then stopped; I ju= st use {da'i} tricks now./
> /<gleki>!!! just da'i or pada'i, su'oda'i, rod= a'i? how can you distinguish between ba'oi and mu'ei then?/
> /<robin>I don't find ba'oi useful at all. Just= da'i./
> /<gleki>but how can we distinguish two meaning= s? i just wanna some examples how we can use da'i for each case. //If i can= 't use conditionals then i cant speak this language. //Conditionals are the= basics. //What are your solutions for su'omu'ei, romu'ei, mu'ei. //I can c= learly see differences in their meaning important when speaking. //Regardle= ss the theory of alternate realities behind MUhEI I need words with such se= mantics. //ko sidju mi/
> /<robin>So use mu'ei ? There's nothing wrong w= ith them. su'o mu'ei is clearly ka'e. I have no idea what use ro mu'ei has;= it looks totally pointless to me. Erm, as a bridi tag; as a sumti tag it's= fine. Looking at http://www.lojban.org/tiki/mu'ei , for "If the train breaks = down I'll be late" is {da'i mi lerci ri'a lo nu le trene cu spofu} //"If th= e train breaks down I might be late" is not a structure I usually have to p= roduce, but if I did I would just use cumki ; {lo nu mi lerci cu cumki lo n= u le trene cu spofu}/
>
>
> So having this absolution granted from lojbo nolraitru I started r= evising mu'ei.
> Here is what I came up with.
> (if you can't see the image look here <https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=3Da.= 233361103451814.50762.100003337779349&type=3D1>).
>
>
> <https:/= /lh5.googleusercontent.com/-opUzSZGQJJM/UB6pRylT1AI/AAAAAAAA= B94/F4vX6jWZkDo/s1600/ka%27e.png>We have two layers. One descri= bes alternate (possible worlds). And it's {ka'e}.
> If you have balls of one color only there are no alternate worlds.= i.e. only bag in the middle has more than one output at M-level.
> Therefore I opine that mu'ei is not a good cmavo as it's trying to= express two levels and therefore two meaning at once. But cmavo should exp= ress one meaning each (being more close to semantic prims).
>
> Strangely enough {pu'i} was out of consideration on mu'ei pages on= lojban.org wiki. That'= s why mu'ei scheme is not complete and comprehensive.
>
> *Other issues including unsettled.*
> romu'ei is absurd.
> bi'ai is described as naka'ena which in my scheme is equal to {ca'= a}. But actually in the examples from the wiki bi'ai is used more like {pu'= i}. In any case it's meaning is covered by the existing cmavo.
> ba'oi has extra meaning of alternate world identical to This World= up to the present. This meaning is yet to be defined using new cmavo if my= criticism of mu'ei is accepted.
> da'i and va'o look like non-logical conditionals. Their meaning is= out of my understanding. But I'm gonna use da'i more like Robin in those c= ases when I'm not sure what alternate-world-cmavo to use or in order to rea= ch ambiguity.
> ka'e is used more like an abbreviation of kakne. If the latter mea= ning of ka'e is fixed we need to find another cmavo for that purpose (for A= -level).
> naka'e has no cmavo for the output at M-level. Luckily naka'e is s= hort enough to be used on it's own.
>
> *Conclusion.*
> mu'ei is not needed. If you wanna describe potential i.e. alternat= e worlds at A-level use naka'e, ka'e or naka'ena=3Dca'a.
> If in possible worlds some balls are black and some are white then= it's ka'e that can result either in nu'o or in pu'i.
> You can use all those cmavo as sumtcita as well which staisfies th= e need in most conditional sentences
> (conditionals are sentences like "If I hadn't swum I would have be= en healthy" or similar).
>
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