Received: from mail-gh0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]:38986) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1T1fTG-0007LF-60; Wed, 15 Aug 2012 08:25:36 -0700 Received: by ghbf16 with SMTP id f16sf1846672ghb.16 for ; Wed, 15 Aug 2012 08:25:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:message-id:date:from:reply-to :subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=qOCrBL7hHq4BEB0tvvSM/YGUPBiFHE5ejlbZ614n4uU=; b=LPFF2NTDsdSlMwttGP4UG2R+rLxLF6TA/O6wDy0YE8qfoditV/ZFT0qCVZrwZS6d9K G4h1OTj+AKZnbs0rvAnPhDctn3FpineWqWI0yShm0PWWR+8ru5/0nYHbvbxRe5I4DO9H rlZq2a8Ln55abBnMkiJ/DA6/rWmdwIsU7+6G4= Received: by 10.50.42.170 with SMTP id p10mr3577045igl.3.1345044315555; Wed, 15 Aug 2012 08:25:15 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.157.164 with SMTP id wn4ls7396740igb.0.canary; Wed, 15 Aug 2012 08:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.127.211 with SMTP id j19mr4038405ics.16.1345044314971; Wed, 15 Aug 2012 08:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.127.211 with SMTP id j19mr4038404ics.16.1345044314956; Wed, 15 Aug 2012 08:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm9-vm2.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm9-vm2.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com. [98.138.90.157]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id xd1si4071183igb.1.2012.08.15.08.25.14; Wed, 15 Aug 2012 08:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.90.157 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.138.90.157; Received: from [98.138.226.176] by nm9.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Aug 2012 15:25:14 -0000 Received: from [68.142.194.243] by tm11.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Aug 2012 15:25:14 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.100] by t1.bullet.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Aug 2012 15:25:14 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1005.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Aug 2012 15:25:14 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 397868.66520.bm@omp1005.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 90266 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Aug 2012 15:25:13 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: gXBqX.4VM1k5ktdoHREIasHsR4w23JxFou1oWATg2ER5kR3 _lD8envoc6qVz2KK_.rbiBpkVNMjDL8dy74YGwpgR3cmL3c29KGhAoCjKQJm 5oS06PyiVDSs2zaGZCg_MDVm_nJFI3rqQ1mC78cmph_uCBLBNXSliGJQVVMH R828geL5WHRi17XS55Kj5hFl8VRV5us.szDYehKfzmKf29XFGXEKiOMDZs7B gHrYatwSO9xuj9U1GR1XJ.NzGaJyjXhjvbmtHjyL39iQB1DcmVFTWX9bymPf CJiuDRM5VEyAz5ysl0thlWwtXKJELzZ.QyNP1LDU9Zuv95YbrTYqaQsar6Gr s.txAbQTxHo26szUrMi_ci1IKBEZHoT55om8.GIx2UMhVrxEGqGhqm7hRjik 5JPWOV8q9b6cUJ2RD5rtRsaR9jCFuyH554GCkDayeXjl39gHYfGm5IIZ7xhy WRgezSeTJOkodO1YHUmLLiiUNEgoJ7wOzM9krYhbcVs1OP3RJtgA7azZlupd 5lkDDRmmbXTWLViicsafR8InW5_UfnRPKzAoLAF_BYcVJSFVi8lp3WWaJDBx eooflektWaBgswpRO9DfKPg3XwSAaDZ_66fCNcQ-- Received: from [99.92.108.194] by web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 15 Aug 2012 08:25:12 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.120.356233 References: <44e6fb5c-91f3-47ba-817c-8560c9c6ca14@googlegroups.com> <502B9E61.8060808@gmx.de> <502BA634.3030007@gmx.de> <502BBB2E.5080307@gmx.de> Message-ID: <1345044312.89895.YahooMailNeo@web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 08:25:12 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] "Any" and {ro} To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: <502BBB2E.5080307@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.90.157 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="1009959307-1313234588-1345044312=:89895" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / --1009959307-1313234588-1345044312=:89895 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wouldn't want to make too much of interrogative pronouns in IE languages,= since they are notoriously shifty (collapsing with relatives in one direct= ion, for example).=A0 In a logical language, it is to be presumed that the = roles is unmistakable. One might make a case that an "anywhere" answer to "= Where are you going/ do you want to go?" somehow is derived from a sentence= still in the question frame work (one member -- or all the members -- of t= he set of answers, I suppose).=A0 But such an extraction in Lojban should r= equire some surface evidence and {ma kau}, at least, evidences the wrong ki= nd of motion.=A0 I'm not sure what might work. ________________________________ From: selpa'i To: lojban@googlegroups.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] "Any" and {ro} =20 Am 15.08.2012 16:05, schrieb tijlan: > That wouldn't work consistently with {du'u}. According to that > interpretation, one would have >=20 >=A0 =A0 do djuno lo du'u mi citka ma kau >=A0 =A0 You know that I eat anything. >=20 >=A0 =A0 do djuno lo du'u mi djica lo nu klama ma kau >=A0 =A0 You know that I want to go wherever Yes, the first example I gave isn't good. The point of this ma kau is that = it appears outside of an abstraction, but of course what you show is still = a problem. The usage of that ma kau would be limited to outside of abstract= ions. Am 15.08.2012 16:26, schrieb John E Clifford: > Well, {ma kau} marks an indirect question and in this usage there seems t= o be nothing either indirect or a question.=20 Well, I'm not sure that's true. Many natlangs use a Wh-question word for th= is construction. French has n'importe ou/quoi/qui etc, English has whatever= /wherever, German has wo auch immer, wer auch immer, sonstwo... So maybe th= ere really is a hint of a question there, if just in that the speaker indir= ectly talks about the possible answer without saying what it is. For the other meanings of any, su'o/ro/no is still the way to go, but I don= 't think anybody argues with that anyway. mu'o mi'e la selpa'i -- pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --1009959307-1313234588-1345044312=:89895 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I wouldn't= want to make too much of interrogative pronouns in IE languages, since the= y are notoriously shifty (collapsing with relatives in one direction, for e= xample).  In a logical language, it is to be presumed that the roles i= s unmistakable. One might make a case that an "anywhere" answer to "Where a= re you going/ do you want to go?" somehow is derived from a sentence still = in the question frame work (one member -- or all the members -- of the set = of answers, I suppose).  But such an extraction in Lojban should requi= re some surface evidence and {ma kau}, at least, evidences the wrong kind o= f motion.  I'm not sure what might work.


From: selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] "Any" and {= ro}

Am 15.08.2012 16:05, schrieb tijlan:
> That wouldn't work consistentl= y with {du'u}. According to that
> interpretation, one would have
= >
>    do djuno lo du'u mi citka ma kau
>  &= nbsp; You know that I eat anything.
>
>    do djuno = lo du'u mi djica lo nu klama ma kau
>    You know that I wa= nt to go wherever

Yes, the first example I gave isn't good. The poin= t of this ma kau is that it appears outside of an abstraction, but of cours= e what you show is still a problem. The usage of that ma kau would be limit= ed to outside of abstractions.

Am 15.08.2012 16:26, schrieb John E C= lifford:
> Well, {ma kau} marks an indirect question and in this usag= e there seems to be nothing either indirect or a question.

Well, I'= m not sure that's true. Many natlangs use a Wh-question word for this const= ruction. French has n'importe ou/quoi/qui etc, English has whatever/wherever, German has wo auch immer, wer auch immer, sonstwo... So= maybe there really is a hint of a question there, if just in that the spea= ker indirectly talks about the possible answer without saying what it is.
For the other meanings of any, su'o/ro/no is still the way to go, but= I don't think anybody argues with that anyway.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i=

-- pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo le= jbo

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
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Fo= r more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.



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