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Subject: Re: [lojban] modals inside description sumti (za'e "internal-modals") question
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coi
For starters, these are advanced topics (ish) which makes me suspect you're
getting a very good grasp of the grammar. Congratulations :) Come talk with
us in IRC sometime !

On 17 August 2012 17:21, sunderland <gatewaycat@gmail.com> wrote:

> Forgive me if this question is super obvious or misguided:
>
> FAhA as a tense goes into {lo} as part of the selbri (I think): {lo zu'a
> zarci}, "store to the left". But what about FAhA as a modal, i.e., "store
> to the left of the school"?
>

FAhA aren't required to appear in descriptions. They can appear before any
selbri.
Additionally, FAhA are members of the meta-selma'o called TAG, which gives
them the following properties:
{fa'a broda} == {fa'a ku broda} == {broda fa'a ku} == {broda fa'a zo'e}
{ko'a jai fa'a broda} == {broda fa'a ko'a}
There are some other properties, but they aren't important.

e.g. {mi zu'a tavla} -> "I'm talking to the left of [something]" where
[something] represents that annoying gloss of {zo'e}.


> - You could use a relative clause with the full gismu (but not all FAhA
> get a gismu).
> {lo zarci poi zunle lo ckule}
>
>
You're right, there are many FAhA that have gismu, but you'll notice that
they're "reversed":
zu'a ~= fi'o *se* zunle

This also holds for PU:
pu ~= fi'o *se* purci


> - You could do a couple of awful conversions (can {jai} can even take FAhA
> instead of BAI?).
> {lo sejaizu'ase zarci be lo ckule}
>
>
{jai} can take any TAG, and there were even ideas about FA becoming TAG,
making stuff like {jai fi} grammatical, albeit unuseful :P


> ==> Is there a straightforward way to put a modal phrase into a
> description sumti? (How do you do za'e "internal-modals"?)
>
>
>
The answer is yes. It's called TAG for a reason, and that's because you can
use TAG to "tag" a sumti, making it fill in the "value" of the TAG.
e.g. {mi citka zu'a lo ckule}, {mi citka ba lo nu tadni}, {mi citka ga'a do}
You could almost think of these TAGs as FA, because they precede the sumti.
However, tagged sumti are invisible to the regular place structure of the
selbri.
i.e. {.i mi mu'i lo nu djica cu citka lo plise} == {.i mi citka mu'i lo nu
djica kei lo plise} == {.i mi citka lo plise mu'i lo nu djica}
It's "better" style to put big event tags at the end of the sentence to
elide terminators.


> Somewhat relatedly, I was also wondering, are the following grammatical?
> 1.  {zu'a lo ckule [ku] cu zarci}
> 2.  {lo mu'i tavla}
>
> In other words, can {cu} separate the selbri from a modal phrase
> (something other than leading sumti)? 1. is technically an observative (I
> think) after all. S
>
econdly, is BAI considered part of the selbri when it's used like a tense?
>

You can use {cu} to terminate pretty much anything, as long as a selbri
follows.

Hope these explanations helped.

mu'o mi'e la tsani

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<div>coi</div><div>For starters, these are advanced topics (ish) which make=
s me suspect you&#39;re getting a very good grasp of the grammar. Congratul=
ations :) Come talk with us in IRC sometime !</div><div><br></div>On 17 Aug=
ust 2012 17:21, sunderland <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gatewayc=
at@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gatewaycat@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<=
br>

<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>Forgive me i=
f this question is super obvious or misguided:<br></div><div><br></div><div=
>
FAhA as a tense goes into {lo} as part of the selbri (I think): {lo zu&#39;=
a zarci}, &quot;store to the left&quot;. But what about FAhA as a modal, i.=
e., &quot;store to the left of the school&quot;?</div>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>FAhA aren&#39;t required to appear in desc=
riptions. They can appear before any selbri.</div><div>Additionally, FAhA a=
re members of the meta-selma&#39;o called TAG, which gives them the followi=
ng properties:</div>

<div>{fa&#39;a broda} =3D=3D {fa&#39;a ku broda} =3D=3D {broda fa&#39;a ku}=
 =3D=3D {broda fa&#39;a zo&#39;e}</div><div>{ko&#39;a jai fa&#39;a broda} =
=3D=3D {broda fa&#39;a ko&#39;a}</div><div>There are some other properties,=
 but they aren&#39;t important.</div>

<div><br></div><div>e.g. {mi zu&#39;a tavla} -&gt; &quot;I&#39;m talking to=
 the left of [something]&quot; where [something] represents that annoying g=
loss of {zo&#39;e}.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div><br></div><div>- You could use a relative clause with the full gismu (=
but not all FAhA get a gismu).</div><div>{lo zarci poi zunle lo ckule}</div=
><div><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You&#39;re right, there ar=
e many FAhA that have gismu, but you&#39;ll notice that they&#39;re &quot;r=
eversed&quot;:</div>

<div>zu&#39;a ~=3D fi&#39;o *se* zunle</div><div><br></div><div>This also h=
olds for PU:</div><div>pu ~=3D fi&#39;o *se* purci</div><div>=A0</div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div></div><div>- You could do a couple of awful conversions (can {jai} can=
 even take FAhA instead of BAI?).</div><div>{lo sejaizu&#39;ase zarci be lo=
 ckule}</div><div><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>{jai} can take=
 any TAG, and there were even ideas about FA becoming TAG, making stuff lik=
e {jai fi} grammatical, albeit unuseful :P</div>

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div></div><div>=3D=3D&gt; Is =
there a straightforward way to put a modal phrase into a description sumti?=
 (How do you do za&#39;e &quot;internal-modals&quot;?)</div>

<div><br></div><div><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The answer i=
s yes. It&#39;s called TAG for a reason, and that&#39;s because you can use=
 TAG to &quot;tag&quot; a sumti, making it fill in the &quot;value&quot; of=
 the TAG.</div>

<div>e.g. {mi citka zu&#39;a lo ckule}, {mi citka ba lo nu tadni}, {mi citk=
a ga&#39;a do}</div><div>You could almost think of these TAGs as FA, becaus=
e they precede the sumti. However, tagged sumti are invisible to the regula=
r place structure of the selbri.</div>

<div>i.e. {.i mi mu&#39;i lo nu djica cu citka lo plise} =3D=3D {.i mi citk=
a mu&#39;i lo nu djica kei lo plise} =3D=3D {.i mi citka lo plise mu&#39;i =
lo nu djica}</div><div>It&#39;s &quot;better&quot; style to put big event t=
ags at the end of the sentence to elide terminators.</div>

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div></div><div>Somewhat relat=
edly,=A0I was also wondering, are the following grammatical?</div><div>1. =
=A0{zu&#39;a lo ckule [ku] cu zarci}=A0</div>

<div>2. =A0{lo mu&#39;i tavla}</div><div><br></div><div>In other words, can=
 {cu} separate the selbri from a modal phrase (something other than leading=
 sumti)? 1. is technically an observative (I think) after all. S=A0</div></=
blockquote>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>econdly, is BAI considered part of the =
selbri when it&#39;s used like a tense?</div></blockquote><div><br></div><d=
iv>

You can use {cu} to terminate pretty much anything, as long as a selbri fol=
lows.</div><div><br></div><div>Hope these explanations helped.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e la tsani=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex">

<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

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</font></span></blockquote></div><br>

<p></p>

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