Received: from mail-vc0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]:61222) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1T2nXj-0005Dd-Rb; Sat, 18 Aug 2012 11:14:47 -0700 Received: by vcbfl10 with SMTP id fl10sf4823734vcb.16 for ; Sat, 18 Aug 2012 11:14:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=WwM1t8eFvD34EDFXtE/JoSNO4WQETttwTAcfw9nRC4c=; b=eJTSG+B4t19WQyM3E9o6casMaU4KgDD14ji64eAPUxVDJTzP2N7+RNBOMQcJcBTNcH 4xLpoonqSSIvtQMt+j8u1mXNgF5HdkxX8MFZn2gBYQ9XJROM17JuaAUNwft6WRF8V3eC r7jgmaizbo6f14Fm5TjeeANAKf8y/rZ+HDN/Q= Received: by 10.236.184.196 with SMTP id s44mr2658797yhm.16.1345313673087; Sat, 18 Aug 2012 11:14:33 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.236.113.178 with SMTP id a38ls11652358yhh.9.gmail; Sat, 18 Aug 2012 11:14:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.109.233 with SMTP id s69mr2657721yhg.11.1345313672346; Sat, 18 Aug 2012 11:14:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 11:14:29 -0700 (PDT) From: djandus To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <536d8399-344f-41e4-9315-27c7d8c95176@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <16cab846-3f84-4bc6-b64f-56aeab08244b@googlegroups.com> References: <16cab846-3f84-4bc6-b64f-56aeab08244b@googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: Let's move {soi} to JOI. And why can't places be interconnected in lojban predicates? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: jandew@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jandew@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jandew@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_240_19497872.1345313669275" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_240_19497872.1345313669275 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Whenever I first learned {soi}, I had a similar thought, but slightly different. It's not to take SOI and make it JOI, because that's basically completely undesired. Instead, it would say: Use SOI like JOI between sumti, but *only* between sumti. (SOI thus allows {ku} elision) SOI, like JOI, is allowed to make a SOI series. ({ko'a soi ko'e soi ko'i} is allowed.) SOI asserts that all sumti in the series can be swapped in any order without changing the validity of the overall bridi. Otherwise, you can remove all SOI (and insert the possibly elided {ku} where necessary) and parse the bridi exactly. (So every sumti still falls into the place structure as if SOI wasn't there, except that the components of the series can be swapped and replaced in any order.) The benefit is that mi prami do soi vo'a vo'e is shortened to mi soi do prami And even more beneficial are longer statements, such as mi bevri lo tanxe ku ti soi tu ca'o bi cacra ca lo cabdei "I carried boxes there and back for eight hours today." (In the current system, the placement of {soi} is rather annoying as well, as it kind of... sucks, no matter where you put it.) The main reason I had for the idea was that Lojban goes through so much effort to allow any place structure order that it is *always* the case that {soi} could be between the necessary sumti, with proper rearranging. Secondarily, it allows the extension of "vice-versa" to include multiple items. (The current SOI uses the restriction of requiring exactly two items to help with VOhA elision.) However, this type of change sorely disagrees with current usage, so a new word would be more proper than a replacement. On a complete side note, I also dislike the current SOI process as it feels like it was created with lame reasons behind it. I get the feeling that somebody came up with VOhA for reflexives and somebody didn't like that a whole series of words was being created for one purpose. That, or maybe somebody liked that {vo'a vo'e} parallels "vice-versa" phonetically. Both of which are pretty lame reasons to not think of a better way of doing things. And on a final side note, I would also like to mention that the reciprocity should be able to be expressed without filling the places, as in the current: {mi prami soi vo'a vo'e} for "I love something (and it loves me)" The way I would do that with my proposal would be: {mi soi vo'e prami}, where vo'e fills the place it represents. (Once again, if anyone actually likes this proposal, we would need a word other than {soi} to use.) mu'o mi'e djos -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/UcrumDOUYqsJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. ------=_Part_240_19497872.1345313669275 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Whenever I first learned {soi}, I had a similar thought, but slightly diffe= rent. It's not to take SOI and make it JOI, because that's basically comple= tely undesired. Instead, it would say:

Use SOI like JOI = between sumti, but only between sumti. (SOI thus allows {ku} el= ision) SOI, like JOI, is allowed to make a SOI series. ({ko'a soi ko'e soi = ko'i} is allowed.) SOI asserts that all sumti in the series can be swapped = in any order without changing the validity of the overall bridi. Otherwise,= you can remove all SOI (and insert the possibly elided {ku} where necessar= y) and parse the bridi exactly. (So every sumti still falls into the place = structure as if SOI wasn't there, except that the components of the series = can be swapped and replaced in any order.)

The ben= efit is that
mi prami do soi vo'a vo'e
is shortened to<= /div>
mi soi do prami
And even more beneficial are longer sta= tements, such as
mi bevri lo tanxe ku ti soi tu ca'o bi cacra ca = lo cabdei
"I carried boxes there and back for eight hours today."=
(In the current system, the placement of {soi} is rather annoyin= g as well, as it kind of... sucks, no matter where you put it.)
<= br>
The main reason I had for the idea was that Lojban goes throu= gh so much effort to allow any place structure order that it is always the case that {soi} could be between the necessary sumti, with prop= er rearranging. Secondarily, it allows the extension of "vice-versa" to inc= lude multiple items. (The current SOI uses the restriction of requiring exa= ctly two items to help with VOhA elision.)

However= , this type of change sorely disagrees with current usage, so a new word wo= uld be more proper than a replacement.

On a comple= te side note, I also dislike the current SOI process as it feels like it wa= s created with lame reasons behind it. I get the feeling that somebody came= up with VOhA for reflexives and somebody didn't like that a whole series o= f words was being created for one purpose. That, or maybe somebody liked th= at {vo'a vo'e} parallels "vice-versa" phonetically. Both of which are prett= y lame reasons to not think of a better way of doing things.

=
And on a final side note, I would also like to mention that the = reciprocity should be able to be expressed without filling the places, as i= n the current:
{mi prami soi vo'a vo'e} for "I love something (an= d it loves me)"
The way I would do that with my proposal would be= :
{mi soi vo'e prami}, where vo'e fills the place it represents.<= /div>
(Once again, if anyone actually likes this proposal, we would nee= d a word other than {soi} to use.)

mu'o mi'e djos<= /div>

--
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