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Subject: Re: [lojban] Let's move {soi} to JOI. And why can't places be
 interconnected in lojban predicates?
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On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 11:43 AM, selpa'i <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:

> Am 18.08.2012 17:20, schrieb la gleki:
>
>  At first some examples.
>>
>> 1.{mi ce do simxu lo nu viska} - presumably it's "We see each other"
>> although we don't know what places of {viska} must be filled with {mi,do}.
>>
>
> mi jo'u do simxu lo ka ce'u ce'u viska
> (also works with joi and ce)
>
>
>
>  So in the chat it has been suggested that we could move {soi} to JOI with
>> the following result:
>>
>> 3.{mi soi do ze'e prami}, quite a laconic way to say "We loved each other
>> since the beginning of time".
>>
>
> But what is prami2?
>
>
>  Even more examples:
>>
>> 4."France and Britain had been at war [with each other] for 100 years".
>>
>
> lo fraso joi lo brito pu jamsi'u ze'a lo nanca be li panono


Are these specific enough? I expected something like "lo frasygu'e" and "lo
britygu'e" (I don't remember their short rafsi).

stevo

>
>
>
>  So don't you think that those multiple meaningful examples that are
>> supposed to be frequently realised in our speech are enough to settle the
>> issue with {soi}?
>>
>
> We have simxu, which is much cleaner, and you can always make -si'u- lujvo
> to shorten it, so I don't really see the point of this proposal. Some time
> ago, I proposed to allow "empty" soi, that is, allow it to be used without
> anything inside, and also to allow inifinitely many arguments so that both
> these become grammatical:
>
>     mi do soi prami
>     "I love you and you love me."
>     "We love each other."
>
>     se slabu soi mi do lo pendo be mi [se'u]
>     "Me, you and my friend all know each other."
>
> This is a sort of afterthought simxu, which I sometimes wanted to have,
> but which doesn't exist (I don't like the current soi).
> All of the arguments in the soi-phrase reciprocally do [bridi], in all
> [meaningful] ways possible.
> The proposal didn't get much attention back then, but I guess I can bring
> it up again.
>
> mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
>
> --
> pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo
>
>
> --
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>
>

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<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 11:43 AM, selpa&=
#39;i <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:seladwa@gmx.de" target=3D"_bl=
ank">seladwa@gmx.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
>

Am 18.08.2012 17:20, schrieb la gleki:<div class=3D"im"><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
At first some examples.<br>
<br>
1.{mi ce do simxu lo nu viska} - presumably it&#39;s &quot;We see each othe=
r&quot; although we don&#39;t know what places of {viska} must be filled wi=
th {mi,do}.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
mi jo&#39;u do simxu lo ka ce&#39;u ce&#39;u viska<br>
(also works with joi and ce)<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
So in the chat it has been suggested that we could move {soi} to JOI with t=
he following result:<br>
<br>
3.{mi soi do ze&#39;e prami}, quite a laconic way to say &quot;We loved eac=
h other since the beginning of time&quot;.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
But what is prami2?<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Even more examples:<br>
<br>
4.&quot;France and Britain had been at war [with each other] for 100 years&=
quot;.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
lo fraso joi lo brito pu jamsi&#39;u ze&#39;a lo nanca be li panono</blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>Are these specific enough? I expected something li=
ke &quot;lo frasygu&#39;e&quot; and &quot;lo britygu&#39;e&quot; (I don&#39=
;t remember their short rafsi).=A0</div>

<div><br></div><div>stevo=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div cla=
ss=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
So don&#39;t you think that those multiple meaningful examples that are sup=
posed to be frequently realised in our speech are enough to settle the issu=
e with {soi}?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
We have simxu, which is much cleaner, and you can always make -si&#39;u- lu=
jvo to shorten it, so I don&#39;t really see the point of this proposal. So=
me time ago, I proposed to allow &quot;empty&quot; soi, that is, allow it t=
o be used without anything inside, and also to allow inifinitely many argum=
ents so that both these become grammatical:<br>


<br>
=A0 =A0 mi do soi prami<br>
=A0 =A0 &quot;I love you and you love me.&quot;<br>
=A0 =A0 &quot;We love each other.&quot;<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0 se slabu soi mi do lo pendo be mi [se&#39;u]<br>
=A0 =A0 &quot;Me, you and my friend all know each other.&quot;<br>
<br>
This is a sort of afterthought simxu, which I sometimes wanted to have, but=
 which doesn&#39;t exist (I don&#39;t like the current soi).<br>
All of the arguments in the soi-phrase reciprocally do [bridi], in all [mea=
ningful] ways possible.<br>
The proposal didn&#39;t get much attention back then, but I guess I can bri=
ng it up again.<br>
<br>
mu&#39;o mi&#39;e la selpa&#39;i<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#8888=
88"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo</font><=
/span><div class=3D"im HOEnZb"><br>
<br>
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<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

<p></p>

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