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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Let's move {soi} to JOI. And why can't places be
 interconnected in lojban predicates?
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Am 18.08.2012 20:14, schrieb djandus:
> Whenever I first learned {soi}, I had a similar thought, but slightly 
> different. It's not to take SOI and make it JOI, because that's 
> basically completely undesired. Instead, it would say:
>
> Use SOI like JOI between sumti, but /only/ between sumti. (SOI thus 
> allows {ku} elision)

What do you mean? ku can always be elided, even with JOI: lo mlatu joi 
lo gerku
There was a time when this didn't work due to parser limitations, but 
we're long past that.

> SOI, like JOI, is allowed to make a SOI series. ({ko'a soi ko'e soi 
> ko'i} is allowed.) SOI asserts that all sumti in the series can be 
> swapped in any order without changing the validity of the overall 
> bridi. Otherwise, you can remove all SOI (and insert the possibly 
> elided {ku} where necessary) and parse the bridi exactly. (So every 
> sumti still falls into the place structure as if SOI wasn't there, 
> except that the components of the series can be swapped and replaced 
> in any order.)

A similar thing happens in my proposal too, but this is a bit weird, 
because you're filling one sumti place while leaving all the others empy.

> The benefit is that
> mi prami do soi vo'a vo'e
> is shortened to
> mi soi do prami
> And even more beneficial are longer statements, such as
> mi bevri lo tanxe ku ti soi tu ca'o bi cacra ca lo cabdei
> "I carried boxes there and back for eight hours today."

mi bevri lo tanxe ti fa'u tu ze'a lo cacra be li bi ca lo cabdei

> [...]
>
> However, this type of change sorely disagrees with current usage, so a 
> new word would be more proper than a replacement.

soi sees extremely little usage; almost any change is an improvement, 
but moving soi to JOI is a bit odd, it still feels hackish. My 
suggestion doesn't break usage though, if that's really of importance.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

-- 
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo

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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><tt>Am 18.08.2012 20:14, schrieb
        djandus:<br>
      </tt></div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:536d8399-344f-41e4-9315-27c7d8c95176@googlegroups.com"
      type="cite"><tt>Whenever I first learned {soi}, I had a similar
        thought, but slightly different. It's not to take SOI and make
        it JOI, because that's basically completely undesired. Instead,
        it would say:</tt>
      <div><tt><br>
        </tt></div>
      <div><tt>Use SOI like JOI between sumti, but <i>only</i>&nbsp;between
          sumti. (SOI thus allows {ku} elision) </tt></div>
    </blockquote>
    <tt><br>
      What do you mean? ku can always be elided, even with JOI: lo mlatu
      joi lo gerku<br>
      There was a time when this didn't work due to parser limitations,
      but we're long past that.<br>
      <br>
    </tt>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:536d8399-344f-41e4-9315-27c7d8c95176@googlegroups.com"
      type="cite">
      <div><tt>SOI, like JOI, is allowed to make a SOI series. ({ko'a
          soi ko'e soi ko'i} is allowed.) SOI asserts that all sumti in
          the series can be swapped in any order without changing the
          validity of the overall bridi. Otherwise, you can remove all
          SOI (and insert the possibly elided {ku} where necessary) and
          parse the bridi exactly. (So every sumti still falls into the
          place structure as if SOI wasn't there, except that the
          components of the series can be swapped and replaced in any
          order.)</tt></div>
    </blockquote>
    <tt><br>
      A similar thing happens in my proposal too, but this is a bit
      weird, because you're filling one sumti place while leaving all
      the others empy.<br>
      <br>
    </tt>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:536d8399-344f-41e4-9315-27c7d8c95176@googlegroups.com"
      type="cite">
      <div><tt>The benefit is that</tt></div>
      <div><tt>mi prami do soi vo'a vo'e</tt></div>
      <div><tt>is shortened to</tt></div>
      <div><tt>mi soi do prami</tt></div>
      <div><tt>And even more beneficial are longer statements, such as</tt></div>
      <div><tt>mi bevri lo tanxe ku ti soi tu ca'o bi cacra ca lo cabdei</tt></div>
      <div><tt>"I carried boxes there and back for eight hours today."</tt></div>
    </blockquote>
    <tt><br>
      mi bevri lo tanxe ti fa'u tu ze'a lo cacra be li bi ca lo cabdei<br>
      <br>
    </tt>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:536d8399-344f-41e4-9315-27c7d8c95176@googlegroups.com"
      type="cite"><tt>[...]</tt>
      <div><tt><br>
        </tt></div>
      <div><tt>However, this type of change sorely disagrees with
          current usage, so a new word would be more proper than a
          replacement.</tt></div>
    </blockquote>
    <tt><br>
      soi sees extremely little usage; almost any change is an
      improvement, but moving soi to JOI is a bit odd, it still feels
      hackish. My suggestion doesn't break usage though, if that's
      really of importance.<br>
      <br>
    </tt><tt>mu'o mi'e la selpa'i<br>
    </tt>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72"><tt>-- 
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo</tt></pre>
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