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Subject: Re: Re: [lojban] Re: Zombie
From: "Mike S." <maikxlx@gmail.com>
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--047d7b15ae270fd06004c793da9c
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On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 8:36 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Mike S. <maikxlx@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 7:41 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 5:19 PM, Mike S. <maikxlx@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 6:34 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Mike S. <maikxlx@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 2:07 PM, <rdentato@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On , ".arpis." <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> > Not all uses of "zombie" (in English) involve a controller; e.g.
>>>>>>>> Left 4 Dead, Night of the Living Dead, Shawn of the Dead, etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, I've seen all those "BRAAAAIIINS" and green skin around but I
>>>>>>>> would favour the original Voodoo myth :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> > Also, I'd just like to note that I have difficulty pronouncing
>>>>>>>> the terminal {ii} to be distinct from {i}.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We have a similar problem in Italian with "principii" (principles)
>>>>>>>> and "principi" (princes). With some exercise they come out very distinct.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It shouldn't be difficult at in Lojban. {ii} is a diphthong
>>>>>>> pronounced "YEE", {i} is a vowel pronounced "EE".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What would be your take on fu'ivla containing {dii}?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The same as my take on all fu'ivla: I don't like it.
>>>>>
>>>>> You'll have to be more specific if you want a better answer.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do you notice any difficulties with {dii}?
>>>>
>>>
>>> No. Should I?
>>
>>
>> Allowing {ii} after coronal sounds like {d} causes many fine minimal
>> contrasts - {di dzi dji zi ji} seems plenty; those with {dii dzii djii zii
>> jii} seems excessive.
>>
>> For some people, plain semivowel {i} will be mixed up with some sort of
>> fricative or affricate even before OPEN vowels.   When you place it near
>> {i}, you are almost insisting that they (af)fricatize it.
>>
>
> I have no idea what you just said.


What I am trying to say is that, if all those combinations become common,
people from around the world are going to mispronounce them and confuse
them with one another.  I am implying that disallowing {ii} helps Lojban
reach its goal that the sounds and the letters correspond with each other
"one-to-one".

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--047d7b15ae270fd06004c793da9c
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 8:36 PM, Jonatha=
n Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">eyeonus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, =
Aug 18, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Mike S. <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ma=
ikxlx@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">maikxlx@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<=
br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 7:41 PM, Jonat=
han Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">eyeonus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 5:19 PM, Mike =
S. <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:maikxlx@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">maikxlx@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex">



<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 6:34 PM, Jonathan J=
ones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank">eyeonus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex">




<div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Mike =
S. <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:maikxlx@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">maikxlx@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex">





<div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Jonathan J=
ones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank">eyeonus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex">






<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 2:07 PM,  <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rdentato@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rdenta=
to@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">







<div>On , &quot;.arpis.&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rpglover64%2Bjbobau@gma=
il.com" target=3D"_blank">rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt=
; Not all uses of &quot;zombie&quot; (in English) involve a controller; e.g=
. Left 4 Dead, Night of the Living Dead, Shawn of the Dead, etc.<br>







<br></div>Yes, I&#39;ve seen all those &quot;BRAAAAIIINS&quot; and green sk=
in around but I would favour the original Voodoo myth :)<div><br> <br>&gt; =
Also, I&#39;d just like to note that I have difficulty pronouncing the term=
inal {ii} to be distinct from {i}.<br>







<br></div>We have a similar problem in Italian with &quot;principii&quot; (=
principles) and &quot;principi&quot; (princes). With some exercise they com=
e out very distinct.

</blockquote></div><div><br>It shouldn&#39;t be difficult at in Lojban. {ii=
} is a diphthong pronounced &quot;YEE&quot;, {i} is a vowel pronounced &quo=
t;EE&quot;.<span><font color=3D"#888888"><br></font></span></div>
</div><span></span></blockquote></div><br></div>What would be your take on =
fu&#39;ivla containing {dii}?</blockquote></div><br></div></div>The same as=
 my take on all fu&#39;ivla: I don&#39;t like it.<br><br>You&#39;ll have to=
 be more specific if you want a better answer.<br>




</blockquote></div><div><br>Do you notice any difficulties with {dii}?</div=
></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>No. Should I?</blockquote></div><=
br></div></div>Allowing {ii} after coronal sounds like {d} causes many fine=
 minimal contrasts - {di dzi dji zi ji} seems plenty; those with {dii dzii =
djii zii jii} seems excessive.=A0 <br>


<br>For some people, plain semivowel {i} will be mixed up with some sort of=
 fricative or affricate even before OPEN vowels. =A0 When you place it near=
 {i}, you are almost insisting that they (af)fricatize it. <br></blockquote=
>

</div><br></div></div>I have no idea what you just said.</blockquote><div><=
br>What I am trying to say is that, if all those combinations become common=
, people from around the world are going to mispronounce them and confuse t=
hem with one another.=A0 I am implying that disallowing {ii} helps Lojban r=
each its goal that the sounds=20
and the letters correspond with each other &quot;one-to-one&quot;.<br><br><=
br></div></div>

<p></p>

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