Received: from mail-wg0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]:52702)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.76)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhC_-MCBBRoEp3tpzg@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1T2tz6-0004OV-05; Sat, 18 Aug 2012 18:07:25 -0700
Received: by wgbdr13 with SMTP id dr13sf1656055wgb.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Sat, 18 Aug 2012 18:07:12 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date
         :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender
         :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list
         :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender
         :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type;
        bh=jjE71QjHLAJO2NQ8sD6x1coawcJWlU6VYy+GkM/fTW4=;
        b=Lcn5YEA9IB5xDnAtlCWnwrqxLIrxiheOvbj0qvIdmvxImiwqSaeVt8KiBeu8aJi/CZ
         C5dYGgqth2QFnRRCedseMd22uZrEVpuOLnEgzgALYemYHWkFKJfSOqIaR5NEsSJhuMgH
         wLRbfSUi4d4rLWfm14yxGau9nGCsSyRm2LnCg=
Received: by 10.205.121.143 with SMTP id gc15mr437241bkc.25.1345338431836;
        Sat, 18 Aug 2012 18:07:11 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.204.7.213 with SMTP id e21ls3662870bke.2.gmail; Sat, 18 Aug
 2012 18:07:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.204.10.88 with SMTP id o24mr918134bko.0.1345338430786;
        Sat, 18 Aug 2012 18:07:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.204.10.88 with SMTP id o24mr918133bko.0.1345338430763;
        Sat, 18 Aug 2012 18:07:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-lb0-f176.google.com (mail-lb0-f176.google.com [209.85.217.176])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j4si2755350bkj.3.2012.08.18.18.07.10
        (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER);
        Sat, 18 Aug 2012 18:07:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.217.176;
Received: by lboi15 with SMTP id i15so3432620lbo.21
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Sat, 18 Aug 2012 18:07:10 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.152.102.238 with SMTP id fr14mr9420396lab.8.1345338430344;
 Sat, 18 Aug 2012 18:07:10 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.152.24.70 with HTTP; Sat, 18 Aug 2012 18:07:10 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <CAOYwWb2Dv6a3pbP2K+ap-5k0Oamb=s2UW_NA04BADrg5ytw00g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALm==BVL4ReGUDDfKkS8UCpSyQ2MM55JwBAs3Ae6LCp9FEFb_g@mail.gmail.com>
	<000e0cd5187e58762a04c77bb7d6@google.com>
	<CAMKwHj36YbO7PVFDpwro-P1AwtFGd8cFLDuHjmwzSrXtMO+f+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOYwWb0ejGK-dnQUo7N+rptX+BsE4d8_YLGxGDySNJUBfdUztg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMKwHj3+ehtAMTaifroffnT2QKbNLY8toKtY-bkgAcOFu9FF5Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOYwWb0ChV9mn=CTy49ErM52mTKke7yBY+dWeLdpef=BxDSrDw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMKwHj1JfmUVOrqqHverFvFRxyy+HPDSx0_q_Nf-QCMn378fvw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOYwWb0m68-ocOA4N2Y++Q=GhW-QiTfcL3-0wrHVov2crza3-A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMKwHj3f6V_HzL5+4ZVHFOUsk81f4dMr-8CLvifhyinDgVTBqQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOYwWb2Dv6a3pbP2K+ap-5k0Oamb=s2UW_NA04BADrg5ytw00g@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 19:07:10 -0600
Message-ID: <CAMKwHj332sXN+T6zx1tZi0VmpYxVpDGWEBnW2zthnrjTcEvWqg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re: [lojban] Re: Zombie
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.217.176 as permitted sender)
 smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04083c933e4c0604c7940341
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-Spam_score: -0.7
X-Spam_score_int: -6
X-Spam_bar: /

--f46d04083c933e4c0604c7940341
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 6:55 PM, Mike S. <maikxlx@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 8:36 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Mike S. <maikxlx@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 7:41 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 5:19 PM, Mike S. <maikxlx@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 6:34 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Mike S. <maikxlx@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 2:07 PM, <rdentato@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On , ".arpis." <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> > Not all uses of "zombie" (in English) involve a controller; e.g.
>>>>>>>>> Left 4 Dead, Night of the Living Dead, Shawn of the Dead, etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, I've seen all those "BRAAAAIIINS" and green skin around but I
>>>>>>>>> would favour the original Voodoo myth :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> > Also, I'd just like to note that I have difficulty pronouncing
>>>>>>>>> the terminal {ii} to be distinct from {i}.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We have a similar problem in Italian with "principii" (principles)
>>>>>>>>> and "principi" (princes). With some exercise they come out very distinct.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It shouldn't be difficult at in Lojban. {ii} is a diphthong
>>>>>>>> pronounced "YEE", {i} is a vowel pronounced "EE".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What would be your take on fu'ivla containing {dii}?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The same as my take on all fu'ivla: I don't like it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You'll have to be more specific if you want a better answer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you notice any difficulties with {dii}?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No. Should I?
>>>
>>>
>>> Allowing {ii} after coronal sounds like {d} causes many fine minimal
>>> contrasts - {di dzi dji zi ji} seems plenty; those with {dii dzii djii zii
>>> jii} seems excessive.
>>>
>>> For some people, plain semivowel {i} will be mixed up with some sort of
>>> fricative or affricate even before OPEN vowels.   When you place it near
>>> {i}, you are almost insisting that they (af)fricatize it.
>>>
>>
>> I have no idea what you just said.
>
>
> What I am trying to say is that, if all those combinations become common,
> people from around the world are going to mispronounce them and confuse
> them with one another.  I am implying that disallowing {ii} helps Lojban
> reach its goal that the sounds and the letters correspond with each other
> "one-to-one".
>

I'm not talking about what should and should not be allowed. All I'm saying
is that in Lojban, {ii}, is pronounced "yee", and {i} is pronounced "ee".

-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.


--f46d04083c933e4c0604c7940341
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 6:55 PM, Mike S. <span d=
ir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:maikxlx@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">maikx=
lx@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"h5">On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 8=
:36 PM, Jonathan Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmai=
l.com" target=3D"_blank">eyeonus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Mike =
S. <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:maikxlx@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">maikxlx@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex">


<div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 7:41 PM, Jonat=
han Jones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">eyeonus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 5:19 PM, Mike =
S. <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:maikxlx@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">maikxlx@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex">




<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 6:34 PM, Jonathan J=
ones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank">eyeonus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex">





<div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 3:50 PM, Mike =
S. <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:maikxlx@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">maikxlx@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex">






<div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Jonathan J=
ones <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank">eyeonus@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex">







<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 2:07 PM,  <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rdentato@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rdenta=
to@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">








<div>On , &quot;.arpis.&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rpglover64%2Bjbobau@gma=
il.com" target=3D"_blank">rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt=
; Not all uses of &quot;zombie&quot; (in English) involve a controller; e.g=
. Left 4 Dead, Night of the Living Dead, Shawn of the Dead, etc.<br>








<br></div>Yes, I&#39;ve seen all those &quot;BRAAAAIIINS&quot; and green sk=
in around but I would favour the original Voodoo myth :)<div><br> <br>&gt; =
Also, I&#39;d just like to note that I have difficulty pronouncing the term=
inal {ii} to be distinct from {i}.<br>








<br></div>We have a similar problem in Italian with &quot;principii&quot; (=
principles) and &quot;principi&quot; (princes). With some exercise they com=
e out very distinct.

</blockquote></div><div><br>It shouldn&#39;t be difficult at in Lojban. {ii=
} is a diphthong pronounced &quot;YEE&quot;, {i} is a vowel pronounced &quo=
t;EE&quot;.<span><font color=3D"#888888"><br></font></span></div>
</div><span></span></blockquote></div><br></div>What would be your take on =
fu&#39;ivla containing {dii}?</blockquote></div><br></div></div>The same as=
 my take on all fu&#39;ivla: I don&#39;t like it.<br><br>You&#39;ll have to=
 be more specific if you want a better answer.<br>





</blockquote></div><div><br>Do you notice any difficulties with {dii}?</div=
></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>No. Should I?</blockquote></div><=
br></div></div>Allowing {ii} after coronal sounds like {d} causes many fine=
 minimal contrasts - {di dzi dji zi ji} seems plenty; those with {dii dzii =
djii zii jii} seems excessive.=A0 <br>



<br>For some people, plain semivowel {i} will be mixed up with some sort of=
 fricative or affricate even before OPEN vowels. =A0 When you place it near=
 {i}, you are almost insisting that they (af)fricatize it. <br></blockquote=
>


</div><br></div></div>I have no idea what you just said.</blockquote></div>=
</div><div><br>What I am trying to say is that, if all those combinations b=
ecome common, people from around the world are going to mispronounce them a=
nd confuse them with one another.=A0 I am implying that disallowing {ii} he=
lps Lojban reach its goal that the sounds=20
and the letters correspond with each other &quot;one-to-one&quot;.</div></d=
iv></blockquote></div><br>I&#39;m not talking about what should and should =
not be allowed. All I&#39;m saying is that in Lojban, {ii}, is pronounced &=
quot;yee&quot;, and {i} is pronounced &quot;ee&quot;.<br clear=3D"all">
<br>-- <br>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo piln=
o be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Lu=
ke, I am your father. :D )<br><br>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.<br />



--f46d04083c933e4c0604c7940341--