Received: from mail-qc0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]:51387) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1T2xCg-0007Zj-Jn; Sat, 18 Aug 2012 21:33:47 -0700 Received: by qcac11 with SMTP id c11sf5388181qca.16 for ; Sat, 18 Aug 2012 21:33:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=qotCWrPmh+lnxTYGcWi53300ohlQ+E6TB7tgKOJ9TqU=; b=GNA0hX0TkAcAt1uw+wJkxoOd+NfA0BClMfIdn6D+5Fuul8hvpUeLfQ20ULUZ/xKkXx Hm0DTiTWLoQAmLBNpNQUE3gBY3F66Tz4G3/ffHFOMH3S0szcxMh/YJtYIXo3tOK/P/3K AulfmdFET0nH5/zzgdCoXCXMEpq3j0SQYl8fs= Received: by 10.68.233.226 with SMTP id tz2mr1437732pbc.13.1345350807031; Sat, 18 Aug 2012 21:33:27 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.197.72 with SMTP id is8ls5552336pbc.5.gmail; Sat, 18 Aug 2012 21:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.233.163 with SMTP id tx3mr1418312pbc.12.1345350806511; Sat, 18 Aug 2012 21:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 21:33:25 -0700 (PDT) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Cc: la gleki , rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com Message-Id: <683d860a-1d75-4f50-995e-0d14af26fe81@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <23861931-0238-4ac4-a76e-60a8ea1b4d75@googlegroups.com> <502E37FF.5000500@gmx.de> <3c8e9a9a-2f9b-4c00-8052-ebe2605507c8@googlegroups.com>

<4e4d586e-9b38-4367-9bc8-6ac533896be3@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] {ko}, {xa'e}, {.e'u}, {e'o} MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_441_158340.1345350805929" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_441_158340.1345350805929 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sunday, August 19, 2012 7:21:06 AM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote: > > It's grammatical; it means something subtly different and relies on an > irrealis interpretation of attitudinals. > > On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 10:37 PM, la gleki > > wrote: > >> >> >> On Saturday, August 18, 2012 11:37:31 PM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote: >>> >>> It is {e'o/pe'u}; it's also {ko} >>> >>> {ko e'o muvgau lo victerlu'i vi'opei .tit.} >>> >>> {ko} represents the part of the meaning that indicates that the listener >>> is expected to be active in making the sentence true. >>> >> {do e'o muvgau ...} - is it grammatical? >> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 2:48 PM, la gleki wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Saturday, August 18, 2012 9:26:23 PM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote: >>>>> >>>>> "Go and take out the trash, will you, honey?" is an imperative. If you >>>>> tell me that it's also an order, I'll concede that we have different >>>>> definitions of "order". >>>>> >>>> It sounds like {.e'o/pe'u} >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 12:49 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 12:39 PM, .arpis. wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> That is absolutely false. {ko} is simply the word for an imperative >>>>>>> mood, with no other implications; it's not necessarily an order. >>>>>> >>>>>> That makes sense. If {ko} is just an imperative in it's generalized meaning then {.e'o} and {COMMAND} would modify it. It has been already discussed that {ko} probably has no shade of harshness. Which leads to another question: How to say "{COMMAND/ORDER} ko klama"? Again new cmavo? Or just {le'o}? One more question, whats the difference between {pe'u do}, {pe'u ko} and {ko .e'o}? > >>>>>> Hunh? An imperative *is *necessarily an order. That's the definition >>>>>> of imperative. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 11:32 AM, la gleki wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> {.e'u} and {ko} largely differ in the fact that after insubmission >>>>>>>> after {ko} you might be executed by your commander whereas after {.e'u} you >>>>>>>> would probably survive. zo'o >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> "Insubmission" is a new and useful word for me. Thanks for using it! >>>>>> >>>>>> stevo >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Friday, August 17, 2012 4:24:31 PM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Am 17.08.2012 13:47, schrieb Paul Predkiewicz: >>>>>>>>> > but {xa'e} is a rafsi of {xance}, how would you use it to say >>>>>>>>> such >>>>>>>>> > things as "let's go"? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -xa'e- is the rafsi, but xa'e as a cmavo is a LAhE (even though I >>>>>>>>> wish >>>>>>>>> it was UI) that makes it so that the sumti it's used on is treated >>>>>>>>> as if >>>>>>>>> it was ko, i.e. a third-person command. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> xa'e lo gerku cu cliva >>>>>>>>> "The dogs shall leave!" >>>>>>>>> "May the dogs leave!" >>>>>>>>> "I want the dogs to leave." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Whether it's very useful is another question. {.e'u} will usually >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> enough for cohortatives at least. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> mu'o mi'e la selpa'i >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo >>>>>>>>> lejbo >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/**ms**g/lojban/-/uwcGoYr3b0UJ >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+un...@** >>>>>>>> googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >>>>>>>> group**/lojban?hl=en . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> mu'o mi'e .arpis. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+un...@** >>>>>>> googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >>>>>>> group**/lojban?hl=en . >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+un...@** >>>>>> googlegroups.com. >>>>>> >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >>>>>> group**/lojban?hl=en . >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> mu'o mi'e .arpis. >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .arpis. >>> >>> > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .arpis. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/uEHyocerN1kJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. ------=_Part_441_158340.1345350805929 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sunday, August 19, 2012 7:21:06 AM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote:It's grammatical; it means something s= ubtly different and relies on an irrealis interpretation of attitudinals.

On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 10:37 PM, la gleki= <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, August 18, 2012 11= :37:31 PM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote:
It is {e'o/pe'u}; it's also {ko}

{ko e'o muvgau lo victerlu'i vi'ope= i .tit.}

{ko} represents the part of the meaning that indicates that= the listener is expected to be active in making the sentence true.

{do e'o muvgau ...} - is it grammatical?

On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 2:48 PM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, August 18, 2012 9:26:23 PM UTC+4, .arpis. wrote:<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border= -left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">"Go and take out the trash, will you= , honey?" is an imperative. If you tell me that it's also an order, I'll co= ncede that we have different definitions of "order".

It sounds like {.e'o/pe'u}

On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 12:49 PM, MorphemeAddict <l= yt...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 12:39 = PM, .arpis. <rpglover...@gmail.com> w= rote:

That is absolutely false. {ko} is simply the word for an imperative mood, w= ith no other implications; it's not necessarily an order.

That makes sense.

<= div>If {ko} is just an imperative in it's generalized meaning then {.e'o} a= nd {COMMAND} would modify it. It has been already discussed t= hat {ko} probably has no shade of harshness. Which leads to another questio= n:

How to say "{COMMAND/ORDER} ko klama"? Again new cmavo? Or jus= t {le'o}?

One more question, whats the difference = between {pe'u do}, {pe'u ko} and {ko .e'o}?

Hunh? An imperative is necessarily an order. That's the definition of imperative.

On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 11:32 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

{.e'u} and {ko} largely differ in the fact t= hat after insubmission after {ko} you might be executed by your commander w= hereas after {.e'u} you would probably survive. zo'o

"Insubmission" is = a new and useful word for me. Thanks for using it!

stevo

On Friday, August 17, 2012 4:24:31 PM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote:Am 17.08.2012 13:47, schrieb Paul Predkiewi= cz:
> but {xa'e} is a rafsi of {xance}, how would you use it to say such= =20
> things as "let's go"?

-xa'e- is the rafsi, but xa'e as a cmavo is a LAhE (even though I wish= =20
it was UI) that makes it so that the sumti it's used on is treated as i= f=20
it was ko, i.e. a third-person command.

xa'e lo gerku cu cliva
"The dogs shall leave!"
"May the dogs leave!"
"I want the dogs to leave."

Whether it's very useful is another question. {.e'u} will usually be=20
enough for cohortatives at least.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

--=20
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com= /d/msg/lojban/-/uwcGoYr3b0UJ.

=20 To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+un...@google= groups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/grou= p/lojban?hl=3Den.

=
--
mu'o mi'e .arpis.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+un...@google= groups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/grou= p/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+un...@google= groups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/grou= p/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
= mu'o mi'e .arpis.

--
mu'o= mi'e .arpis.

-- mu'o mi'e .arpis.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/uE= HyocerN1kJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
------=_Part_441_158340.1345350805929--