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Subject: Re: [lojban] {ko}, {xa'e}, {.e'u}, {e'o}
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On Sunday, August 19, 2012 8:30:28 AM UTC+4, stevo wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 1:26 PM, .arpis. <rpglover...@gmail.com<javascript:>
> > wrote:
>
>> "Go and take out the trash, will you, honey?" is an imperative. If you 
>> tell me that it's also an order, I'll concede that we have different 
>> definitions of "order".
>
>
> Okay, I concede that your example is of a request or suggestion, rather 
> than an order, despite its imperative. 
> But in general, imperatives and orders overlap a lot. 
> OTOH, I know that in Russian, sometimes--especially in the 
> military--orders are given in the infinitive. 
>
So what? Loglan has this by default. Stupid natlangish one-word=several 
meanings.

>
> stevo
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 12:49 PM, MorphemeAddict <lyt...@gmail.com<javascript:>
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 12:39 PM, .arpis. <rpglover...@gmail.com<javascript:>
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> That is absolutely false. {ko} is simply the word for an imperative 
>>>> mood, with no other implications; it's not necessarily an order.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hunh? An imperative *is *necessarily an order. That's the definition of 
>>> imperative. 
>>>  
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 11:32 AM, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com<javascript:>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> {.e'u} and {ko} largely differ in the fact that after insubmission 
>>>>> after {ko} you might be executed by your commander whereas after {.e'u} you 
>>>>> would probably survive. zo'o
>>>>
>>>>
>>> "Insubmission" is a new and useful word for me. Thanks for using it!
>>>
>>> stevo 
>>>
>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>> On Friday, August 17, 2012 4:24:31 PM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 17.08.2012 13:47, schrieb Paul Predkiewicz: 
>>>>>> > but {xa'e} is a rafsi of {xance}, how would you use it to say such 
>>>>>> > things as "let's go"? 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -xa'e- is the rafsi, but xa'e as a cmavo is a LAhE (even though I 
>>>>>> wish 
>>>>>> it was UI) that makes it so that the sumti it's used on is treated as 
>>>>>> if 
>>>>>> it was ko, i.e. a third-person command. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      xa'e lo gerku cu cliva 
>>>>>>      "The dogs shall leave!" 
>>>>>>      "May the dogs leave!" 
>>>>>>      "I want the dogs to leave." 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whether it's very useful is another question. {.e'u} will usually be 
>>>>>> enough for cohortatives at least. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> mu'o mi'e la selpa'i 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  -- 
>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>>>> Groups "lojban" group.
>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/uwcGoYr3b0UJ.
>>>>>
>>>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com<javascript:>
>>>>> .
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> mu'o mi'e .arpis.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  -- 
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>>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> mu'o mi'e .arpis.
>>
>>  -- 
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>>
>
>

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<br><br>On Sunday, August 19, 2012 8:30:28 AM UTC+4, stevo wrote:<blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: =
1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sa=
t, Aug 18, 2012 at 1:26 PM, .arpis. <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"javasc=
ript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"pw_rxfRm2FgJ">rpglover...=
@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

"Go and take out the trash, will you, honey?" is an imperative. If you tell=
 me that it's also an order, I'll concede that we have different definition=
s of "order".</blockquote><div><br></div><div>

Okay, I concede that your example is of a request or suggestion, rather tha=
n an order, despite its imperative.&nbsp;</div><div>But in general, imperat=
ives and orders overlap a lot.&nbsp;</div><div>OTOH, I know that in Russian=
, sometimes--especially in the military--orders are given in the infinitive=
.&nbsp;</div></div></blockquote><div>So what? Loglan has this by default. S=
tupid natlangish one-word=3Dseveral meanings.</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">

<div><br></div><div>stevo</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><br=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">

On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 12:49 PM, MorphemeAddict <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"pw_rxfRm2FgJ=
">lyt...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 12:39 PM, .=
arpis. <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-=
obfuscated-mailto=3D"pw_rxfRm2FgJ">rpglover...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wro=
te:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

That is absolutely false. {ko} is simply the word for an imperative mood, w=
ith no other implications; it's not necessarily an order.</blockquote><div>=
<br></div></div><div>Hunh? An imperative <i>is </i>necessarily an order. Th=
at's the definition of imperative.&nbsp;</div>



<div>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 11:32 AM, la gleki <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"pw_rxfRm2F=
gJ">gleki.is...@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>







<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">{.e'u} and {ko} largely differ in the fact t=
hat after insubmission after {ko} you might be executed by your commander w=
hereas after {.e'u} you would probably survive. zo'o</blockquote>





</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>"Insubmission" is =
a new and useful word for me. Thanks for using it!</div><div><br></div><div=
>stevo&nbsp;</div><div><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>

<br><br>On Friday, August 17, 2012 4:24:31 PM UTC+4, selpa'i wrote:<blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Am 17.08.2012 13:47, schrieb Paul Predkiewi=
cz:
<br>&gt; but {xa'e} is a rafsi of {xance}, how would you use it to say such=
=20
<br>&gt; things as "let's go"?
<br>
<br>-xa'e- is the rafsi, but xa'e as a cmavo is a LAhE (even though I wish=
=20
<br>it was UI) that makes it so that the sumti it's used on is treated as i=
f=20
<br>it was ko, i.e. a third-person command.
<br>
<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;xa'e lo gerku cu cliva
<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"The dogs shall leave!"
<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"May the dogs leave!"
<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"I want the dogs to leave."
<br>
<br>Whether it's very useful is another question. {.e'u} will usually be=20
<br>enough for cohortatives at least.
<br>
<br>mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
<br>
<br>--=20
<br>pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo
<br>
<br></blockquote>

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br></div></div><span>=
<font color=3D"#888888">-- <br>mu'o mi'e .arpis.</font></span><div><br><br>

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div><div><br>

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>mu'o mi'e .=
arpis.<br><br>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br>
</blockquote>

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