: > coi la gleki >=20 > Just commenting on one point, the German source words. >=20 > pe'i If German "Magen" and "R=C3=BCcken" were to be considered, they shou= ld be transcribed "magyn" and "rikyn", respectively. IPA is, more or less, = ['ma=CB=90g=C9=99n]/[ma=CB=90gn=CC=A9] and ['=CA=81=CA=8Fk=C9=99n]/[=CA=81= =CA=8Fkn=CC=A9]. "=C3=BC" is customarily transcribed as "=D1=8E" in, eg, Ru= ssian, which would be lojbanised as "iu", but it's a simple front vowel in = German, the nearest Lojban equivalent of which is probably "i". Also, altho= ugh "R=C3=BCcken" is historically "r=C3=BCck" + "en" (I guess), the "en" in= "R=C3=BCcken" is pe'i not a productive suffix, so probably it shouldn't be= removed before Lojbanisation. I'm not sure about that last point, though. >=20 > Also, I have of course not the slightest idea if this changes the outcome= of your gismu generation. >=20 > -iesk >=20 > Le mardi 21 ao=C3=BBt 2012 17:07:36 UTC+2, la gleki a =C3=A9crit : > Robin wanted those two new gismu and so I started preparing their soundin= g. >=20 > At first I asked myself "Are those frequencies taken from Atlas of the wo= rld true or correct? Are there any flaws in the method of generating gismu = from 6 languages?" >=20 > So here is my new method. >=20 > 1.At first I opened this wikipedia article. Unfortunately Wikipedia just = removed the data that we need in it's newer revisions of the page. > 2.Write out the number of native (I'll call them L1) speakers of first mo= st common languages. Determine the number of L2 speakers as L2=3D(total num= ber of speakers - L1 speakers). > 3. In one special case we have L3 speakers. > 4. Determine the corrected frequency as =3DL1+L2 / 2 + L3 / 3 > 5. Leave first 12 languages (I'll tell you later why 12) > 5. Convert them to fractions so that the sum=3D1. > 6.Therefore we get (3-letter ISO-codes of languages in the 1st column) >=20 > l1 l2 l3 total cor.freq. fraction > cmn 845 180 1025 935 0.246117 > eng 375 375 750 812.5 0.213872 > spa 329 61 390 359.5 0.09463 > ara 232 220 452 342 0.090024 > hin 240 165 405 322.5 0.084891 > ben 181 69 250 215.5 0.056725 > rus 144 106 250 197 0.051856 > por 178 15 193 185.5 0.048829 > jap 122 1 123 122.5 0.032245 > pun 109 0 109 109 0.028692 > deu 90 28 118 104 0.027376 > fra 68 52 120 94 0.024743 > jav 85 0 85 85 =20 > wu 77 0 77 77 =20 > mar 75 3 76.5 =20 > tel 70 5 75 72.5 =20 > vie 69 0 69 69 =20 > =20 > 1 > 7.Now some general stuff. I stopped at French cuz it's a Romance language= similar to Poruguese and Spanish so it might shift the frequencies of phon= emes a bit. > 8.Punjabi and Bengali are no longer considered as variations of Hindi. >=20 > 9.Now let's find etymologies for our gismu. > I can recommend the following links (warning! unsorted) > for transliterating Arabic script robsmart.co.uk =C2=BB Transliteration a= gain =E2=80=A6 now complete > punjabi dic stomach | Meaning of stomach | Punjabi Dictionary | iJunoon > punjabi dic Punjabi(Gurmukhi,Shahmukhi) to English Dictionary:: ACTDPL P= unjabi University, Patiala > no comments Google Translate > Hindi stomach meaning in Hindi and English - Shabdkosh.com | =E0=A4=B6= =E0=A4=AC=E0=A5=8D=E0=A4=A6=E0=A4=95=E0=A5=8B=E0=A4=B6.=E0=A4=95=E0=A5=89= =E0=A4=AE > Hindi English to Hindi Dictionary and Translation > Hindi Hindi English Dictionary Online > Bengali stomach meaning in Bengali and English - Shabdkosh.com | =E0=A6= =85=E0=A6=AD=E0=A6=BF=E0=A6=A7=E0=A6=BE=E0=A6=A8.=E0=A4=95=E0=A5=89=E0=A4= =AE > Bengali stomach - A Bengali-English dictionary > intend translation Portuguese | English-Portuguese dictionary | Reverso C= ollins > Japanese Find words - Denshi Jisho > German am going to : Dictionary / W=C3=B6rterbuch (BEOLINGUS, TU Chemnitz= ) > audio samples forvo.com >=20 >=20 > 10.Some dictionaries contain audio samples. > 11.Notice that Punjabi, Bengali and Hindi (together with Urdu) are quite = similar. You usually should get the same sounding. > 12. So prepare the sounding using standard methods of it's adapting to lo= jban phonology as described in the CLL. > 13.Now let's use scoreGismu perl app. >=20 > For "stomach" we get > cmn vei 0.253388 > eng beli 0.22019 > spa bientre 0.097425 > ara muada 0.092683 > hin pet 0.087398 > ben pet 0.058401 > rus jeludyk 0.053388 > por bariga 0.050271 > jap xara 0.033198 > pun pet 0.028692 > deu magen 0.028184 > fra vontr 0.025474 >=20 > With first 4 languages it outputs=20 > vreli velti venli velbi 0.691286 (rating) > With all 12 languages it outputs=09 > vetli 0.535 > (rating) >=20 >=20 > I'd choose {vetli} as it's similar to Chinese vei, English belly, Indian = "pet" and Romance "ventr-" >=20 >=20 > For "back of human body" we get > cmn beiji 0.253388 > eng bak 0.22019 > spa espalda 0.097425 > ara vyxra 0.092683 > hin pic 0.087398 > ben pic 0.058401 > rus spin 0.053388 > por kostas 0.050271 > jap se 0.033198 > pun pic 0.028692 > deu riuk 0.028184 > fra dos 0.025474 >=20 > Top score is=09 > bekpi bajdi 0.50684 4 langs > bekpi 0.4697 12 langs >=20 > I'd choose {bekpi} which reminds me of Chinese bei, English back, Indian = pic and Russian sPIna. >=20 > Robin approved them several hours ago in chat but I'm free to suggestions= . >=20 > Notes. > Still 6 languages is enough. 4 languages are not enough. More than 12 lan= guages is a useless waste of time (but If you can collect translations plea= se do). > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/= lojban/-/DrO1ONmWqngJ. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --Apple-Mail-E74A2A17-358C-4395-AB56-1CC84B003982 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8

coi,

I like the= method of generating gismu, but if we should add more gismu I think there = may be several other basic concepts with higher priority.

For exa= mple "bicycle", for which I don't find "relxilma'e" appropriate since bicyc= les may have more or less than two wheels. A gismu for bicycle (with short = rafsi) would also be useful for making words for motorcycle, moped etc.

A gismu for gender (with a standard place) would also be very useful= , especially for a sociologist as myself. And that would end the endless di= scussions here about this vague, but universal concept.

And if we= want a gismu for stomach, so why don't we add gismu for kidney (and perhap= s more organs) as well? Why just stomach?

And "back" already has = two different lujvo: "cuyti'e" for upper back respectively befti'e for lowe= r back. If we would like to refer to the whole back, so why don't we just u= se "cutyjoibefti'e" or "xadyti'e". I can't see the need for gismu for that.=

mu'omi'e sebastian

Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhon= e

21 aug 2012 kl. 19:00 skrev iesk <pa.fae@gmx.de>:

coi la gleki

Just commenting on one point, the German= source words.

pe'i If German "Magen" and "R=C3=BCcken" were to be c= onsidered, they should be transcribed "magyn" and "rikyn", respectively. IP= A is, more or less, ['ma=CB=90g=C9=99n]/[ma=CB=90gn=CC=A9] and ['=CA=81=CA= =8Fk=C9=99n]/[=CA=81=CA=8Fkn=CC=A9]. "=C3=BC" is customarily transcribed as= "=D1=8E" in, eg, Russian, which would be lojbanised as "iu", but it's a si= mple front vowel in German, the nearest Lojban equivalent of which is proba= bly "i". Also, although "R=C3=BCcken" is historically "r=C3=BCck" + "en" (I= guess), the "en" in "R=C3=BCcken" is pe'i not a productive suffix, so prob= ably it shouldn't be removed before Lojbanisation. I'm not sure about that = last point, though.

Also, I have of course not the slightest idea if= this changes the outcome of your gismu generation.

-iesk

Le = mardi 21 ao=C3=BBt 2012 17:07:36 UTC+2, la gleki a =C3=A9crit :Robin wanted those two new gismu and = so I started preparing their sounding.

At first I asked = myself "Are those frequencies taken from Atlas of the world true or correct= ? Are there any flaws in the method of generating gismu from 6 languages?"<= /div>

So here is my new method.

1.At first I opened this wikipedia article. Unfortunately Wikipedia just remo= ved the data that we need in it's newer revisions of the page.
2.Write out the number of native (I'll call them L1) speakers of first m= ost common languages. Determine the number of L2 speakers as L2=3D(total nu= mber of speakers - L1 speakers).
3. In one special case we have L= 3 speakers.
4. Determine the corrected frequency as =3DL1+L2 / 2 = + L3 / 3
5. Leave first 12 languages (I'll tell you later why 12)=
5. Convert them to fractions so that the sum=3D1.
6.Th= erefore we get (3-letter ISO-codes of languages in the 1st column)

&n= bsp;	l1	l2	l3	total	cor.freq.	fraction
cmn	845	180		1025	935	0.246117
eng	375	375	750		812.5	0.213872
spa	329	61		390	359.5	0.09463
ara	232	220		452	342	0.090024
hin	240	165		405	322.5	0.084891
ben	181	69		250	215.5	0.056725
rus	144	106		250	197	0.051856
por	178	15		193	185.5	0.048829
jap	122	1		123	122.5	0.032245
pun	109	0		109	109	0.028692
deu	90	28		118	104	0.027376
fra	68	52		120	94	0.024743
jav	85	0		85	85
wu	77	0		77	77
mar	75	3			76.5
tel	70	5		75	72.5
vie	69	0		69	69
&nbs= p;
&nbs= p;						1

7.Now some general stuff. I stopped at Fre= nch cuz it's a Romance language similar to Poruguese and Spanish so it migh= t shift the frequencies of phonemes a bit.

8.Punjabi and Beng= ali are no longer considered as variations of Hindi.

9.Now let's find etymologies for our gismu.

I can recommend th= e following links (warning! unsorted)

for transliterating Arab= ic script robsmart.co.uk =C2=BB Transliteratio= n again =E2=80=A6 now complete

punjabi dic stomach | Meaning of stomach | Punjabi Dictionary | iJunoon

punjabi dic Punjabi(Gurmukhi,Shahmukhi) to English Dictionar= y:: ACTDPL Punjabi University, Patiala

no comments Google Translate

Hin= di stomach meaning in Hindi and English= - Shabdkosh.com | =E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=AC=E0=A5=8D=E0=A4=A6=E0=A4=95=E0=A5=8B= =E0=A4=B6.=E0=A4=95=E0=A5=89=E0=A4=AE

Hindi English to Hindi D= ictionary and Translation

Hindi Hindi English Dictionary Online

Bengali stomach meaning= in Bengali and English - Shabdkosh.com | =E0=A6=85=E0=A6=AD=E0=A6=BF=E0=A6= =A7=E0=A6=BE=E0=A6=A8.=E0=A4=95=E0=A5=89=E0=A4=AE

Bengali&= nbsp;stomach - A Bengali-English= dictionary

intend translation Portuguese | English-Portugu= ese dictionary | Reverso Collins

Japanese Find words - Denshi Jisho

German <= a href=3D"http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/dings.cgi?lang=3Den&service=3Ddeen= &opterrors=3D0&optpro=3D0&query=3Dam+going+to&iservice=3D&a= mp;comment=3D&email=3D" target=3D"_blank">am going to : Dictionary / W= =C3=B6rterbuch (BEOLINGUS, TU Chemnitz)

audio samples&nb= sp;forvo.com

<= br>

10.Some dictionaries contain audio samples.

11.Notice that Punjabi, Bengali and Hindi (together with Urdu) are = quite similar. You usually should get the same sounding.

12. So p= repare the sounding using standard methods of it's adapting to lojban phono= logy as described in the CLL.

13.Now let's use scoreGismu perl ap= p.

For "stomach" we get

cmn	vei	0.253388
eng	beli	0.22019
spa	bientre	0.097425
ara	muada	0.092683
hin	pet	0.087398
ben	pet	0.058401
rus	jeludyk	0.053388
por	bariga	0.050271
jap	xara	0.033198
pun	pet	0.028692
deu	magen	0.028184
fra	vontr	0.025474

With first 4 languages it outputs = ;

vreli velti venli velbi	0.691286 (rating)
With all 12 languages it &= nbsp;outputs
vetli	0.535 (rating)

I'd choose {vetli}= as it's similar to Chinese vei, English belly, Indian "pet" and Romance "v= entr-"

For "back of human body" we = get

cmn	beiji	0.253388
eng	bak	0.22019
spa	espalda	0.097425
ara	vyxra	0.092683
hin	pic	0.087398
ben	pic	0.058401
rus	spin	0.053388
por	kostas	0.050271
jap	se	0.033198
pun	pic	0.028692
deu	riuk	0.028184
fra	dos	0.025474

Top score is
bekpi bajdi=	0.50684	4 langs

bekpi	0.4697	12 langs

I'd choose {bekpi} which reminds me of= Chinese bei, English back, Indian pic and Russian sPIna.

Robin approved them several hours ago in chat but I'm free to sugge= stions.

Notes.

Still 6 languages = is enough. 4 languages are not enough. More than 12 languages is a useless = waste of time (but If you can collect translations please do).

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/Dr= O1ONmWqngJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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