Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]:33612) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1T42SE-0003Yn-8p; Tue, 21 Aug 2012 21:22:21 -0700 Received: by yhoo21 with SMTP id o21sf439875yho.16 for ; Tue, 21 Aug 2012 21:21:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=AFrgIpbaMC5rZ9ikVxUFAC/FpXlbG+XKnobgZJnjo3A=; b=wRVCOevibFPIX+Np/Ka9zk/JmNoAHhWyziE6UqwFNpOttorHdZKIlproyJMptYgCcK NmScJXl3xPKpWi+Re8+c8plcWWwnuUv3OBoqask3Nv3UD9LH1JYTxiRdwUiIwmWFsdP0 1qbY2UQK2w00ppm5eqOF29HCTCvcGUXXY4vujfh+STSn7O0rVkpNl4WmOCrbvDKkvT4u x4M9ydn3QXyP5o2VpulQez5ozgE+I/hxrzM24UK1RUUfHKPJD2Qzluk0W4bTNu2vEhH8 1ZCr8nYfm8XtNALI7Jq/6RiJJKNZNmuB18SoXOZk2N8Tu87LQsT/G++aOM0VREFdb/oU z1JA== Received: by 10.182.92.73 with SMTP id ck9mr488273obb.10.1345609319454; Tue, 21 Aug 2012 21:21:59 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.117.8 with SMTP id ka8ls785506obb.4.gmail; Tue, 21 Aug 2012 21:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.146.71 with SMTP id ta7mr475737obb.14.1345609318554; Tue, 21 Aug 2012 21:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 21:21:57 -0700 (PDT) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <76a20933-146e-4dad-8e6c-c8442cd6c7c0@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <86e78277-c410-4da2-bf88-2c3b28752932@googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: Two new gismu, "stomach" and "back of body". And a proposal for an updated method of generating gismu. MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_220_6894403.1345609317694" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_220_6894403.1345609317694 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tuesday, August 21, 2012 9:00:33 PM UTC+4, iesk wrote: > > coi la gleki > > Just commenting on one point, the German source words. > > pe'i If German "Magen" and "R=C3=BCcken" were to be considered, they shou= ld be=20 > transcribed "magyn" and "rikyn", respectively. IPA is, more or less,=20 > ['ma=CB=90g=C9=99n]/[ma=CB=90gn=CC=A9] and ['=CA=81=CA=8Fk=C9=99n]/[=CA= =81=CA=8Fkn=CC=A9]. "=C3=BC" is customarily transcribed as=20 > "=D1=8E" in, eg, Russian, which would be lojbanised as "iu", but it's a s= imple=20 > front vowel in German, the nearest Lojban equivalent of which is probably= =20 > "i". Also, although "R=C3=BCcken" is historically "r=C3=BCck" + "en" (I g= uess), the=20 > "en" in "R=C3=BCcken" is pe'i not a productive suffix, so probably it sho= uldn't=20 > be removed before Lojbanisation. I'm not sure about that last point, thou= gh. > Unfortunately, you are too late. I'm against a gismu for "stomach" now. I= =20 was just forced to add words to jvs. I'll ask Robin to remove it.=20 > > Also, I have of course not the slightest idea if this changes the outcome= =20 > of your gismu generation. > > -iesk > > Le mardi 21 ao=C3=BBt 2012 17:07:36 UTC+2, la gleki a =C3=A9crit : >> >> Robin wanted those two new gismu and so I started preparing their=20 >> sounding. >> >> At first I asked myself "Are those frequencies taken from Atlas of the= =20 >> world true or correct? Are there any flaws in the method of generating= =20 >> gismu from 6 languages?" >> >> So here is my new method. >> >> 1.At first I opened this wikipedia article.=20 >> Unfortunately Wikipedia just removed the data that we need in it's newer= =20 >> revisions of the page. >> 2.Write out the number of native (I'll call them L1) speakers of first= =20 >> most common languages. Determine the number of L2 speakers as L2=3D(tota= l=20 >> number of speakers - L1 speakers). >> 3. In one special case we have L3 speakers. >> 4. Determine the corrected frequency as =3DL1+L2 / 2 + L3 / 3 >> 5. Leave first 12 languages (I'll tell you later why 12) >> 5. Convert them to fractions so that the sum=3D1. >> 6.Therefore we get (3-letter ISO-codes of languages in the 1st column) >> >> l1 l2 l3 total cor.freq. fraction cmn 845 180 1025 935 0.246117 = =20 >> eng 375 375 750 812.5 0.213872 spa 329 61 390 359.5 0.09463 ara 23= 2=20 >> 220 452 342 0.090024 hin 240 165 405 322.5 0.084891 ben 181 69 = =20 >> 250 215.5 0.056725 rus 144 106 250 197 0.051856 por 178 15 193=20 >> 185.5 0.048829 jap 122 1 123 122.5 0.032245 pun 109 0 109 109=20 >> 0.028692 deu 90 28 118 104 0.027376 fra 68 52 120 94 0.024743 jav= =20 >> 85 0 85 85 wu 77 0 77 77 mar 75 3 76.5 tel 70 5 75=20 >> 72.5 vie 69 0 69 69 1=20 >> 7.Now some general stuff. I stopped at French cuz it's a Romance languag= e=20 >> similar to Poruguese and Spanish so it might shift the frequencies of=20 >> phonemes a bit. >> 8.Punjabi and Bengali are no longer considered as variations of Hindi. >> >> 9.Now let's find etymologies for our gismu. >> I can recommend the following links (warning! unsorted) >> for transliterating Arabic script robsmart.co.uk =C2=BB Transliteration = again=20 >> =E2=80=A6 now complete punjabi=20 >> dic stomach | Meaning of stomach | Punjabi Dictionary | iJunoon punjabi=20 >> dic Punjabi(Gurmukhi,Shahmukhi) to English Dictionary:: ACTDPL Punjabi= =20 >> University, Patiala no=20 >> comments Google Translate >> Hindi stomach meaning in Hindi and English - Shabdkosh.com | =E0=A4=B6= =E0=A4=AC=E0=A5=8D=E0=A4=A6=E0=A4=95=E0=A5=8B=E0=A4=B6.=E0=A4=95=E0=A5=89= =E0=A4=AE >> Hindi English to Hindi Dictionary and Translation >> Hindi Hindi English Dictionary Online >> Bengali stomach meaning in Bengali and English - Shabdkosh.com |=20 >> =E0=A6=85=E0=A6=AD=E0=A6=BF=E0=A6=A7=E0=A6=BE=E0=A6=A8.=E0=A4=95=E0=A5= =89=E0=A4=AE >> Bengali stomach - A Bengali-English dictionaryintend=20 >> translation Portuguese | English-Portuguese dictionary | Reverso Collins= >> Japanese Find words - Denshi Jisho >> German am going to : Dictionary / W=C3=B6rterbuch (BEOLINGUS, TU Chemnit= z) >> audio samples forvo.com >> >> >> 10.Some dictionaries contain audio samples. >> 11.Notice that Punjabi, Bengali and Hindi (together with Urdu) are quite= =20 >> similar. You usually should get the same sounding. >> 12. So prepare the sounding using standard methods of it's adapting to= =20 >> lojban phonology as described in the CLL. >> 13.Now let's use scoreGismu perl app. >> >> For "stomach" we get >> cmn vei 0.253388 eng beli 0.22019 spa bientre 0.097425 ara muada=20 >> 0.092683 hin pet 0.087398 ben pet 0.058401 rus jeludyk 0.053388 por= =20 >> bariga 0.050271 jap xara 0.033198 pun pet 0.028692 deu magen 0.028184= =20 >> fra vontr 0.025474=20 >> With first 4 languages it outputs=20 >> *vreli velti venli velbi* 0.691286 (rating) With all 12 languages it= =20 >> outputs *vetli* 0.535 >> (rating)=20 >> >> >> I'd choose {vetli} as it's similar to Chinese vei, English belly, Indian= =20 >> "pet" and Romance "ventr-" >> >> >> For "back of human body" we get >> cmn beiji 0.253388 eng bak 0.22019 spa espalda 0.097425 ara vyxra=20 >> 0.092683 hin pic 0.087398 ben pic 0.058401 rus spin 0.053388 por=20 >> kostas 0.050271 jap se 0.033198 pun pic 0.028692 deu riuk 0.028184 = =20 >> fra dos 0.025474=20 >> Top score is bekpi bajdi 0.50684 4 langs bekpi 0.4697 12 langs=20 >> I'd choose {bekpi} which reminds me of Chinese bei, English back, Indian= =20 >> pic and Russian sPIna. >> >> Robin approved them several hours ago in chat but I'm free to suggestion= s. >> >> *Notes.* >> Still 6 languages is enough. 4 languages are not enough. More than 12=20 >> languages is a useless waste of time (but If you can collect translation= s=20 >> please do). >> > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lo= jban/-/vBUjnOt7lY4J. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. ------=_Part_220_6894403.1345609317694 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Tuesday, August 21, 2012 9:00:33 PM UTC+4, iesk wrote:coi la gleki

Just commenting on o= ne point, the German source words.

pe'i If German "Magen" and "R=C3= =BCcken" were to be considered, they should be transcribed "magyn" and "rik= yn", respectively. IPA is, more or less, ['ma=CB=90g=C9=99n]/[ma=CB=90gn=CC= =A9] and ['=CA=81=CA=8Fk=C9=99n]/[=CA=81=CA=8Fkn=CC=A9]. "=C3=BC" is custom= arily transcribed as "=D1=8E" in, eg, Russian, which would be lojbanised as= "iu", but it's a simple front vowel in German, the nearest Lojban equivale= nt of which is probably "i". Also, although "R=C3=BCcken" is historically "= r=C3=BCck" + "en" (I guess), the "en" in "R=C3=BCcken" is pe'i not a produc= tive suffix, so probably it shouldn't be removed before Lojbanisation. I'm = not sure about that last point, though.
Unfortunately,= you are too late. I'm against a gismu for "stomach" now. I was just forced= to add words to jvs. I'll ask Robin to remove it. 

Also, I have of course not the slightes= t idea if this changes the outcome of your gismu generation.

-iesk
Le mardi 21 ao=C3=BBt 2012 17:07:36 UTC+2, la gleki a =C3=A9crit = ;:
Robin wanted those two new gismu = and so I started preparing their sounding.

At first I as= ked myself "Are those frequencies taken from Atlas of the world true or cor= rect? Are there any flaws in the method of generating gismu from 6 language= s?"

So here is my new method.

=
1.At first I opened this wikipedia article. Unfortunately Wikipedia just = removed the data that we need in it's newer revisions of the page.
2.Write out the number of native (I'll call them L1) speakers of fir= st most common languages. Determine the number of L2 speakers as L2=3D(tota= l number of speakers - L1 speakers).
3. In one special case we ha= ve L3 speakers.
4. Determine the corrected frequency as =3DL1+L2 = / 2 + L3 / 3
5. Leave first 12 languages (I'll tell you later why= 12)
5. Convert them to fractions so that the sum=3D1.
= 6.Therefore we get (3-letter ISO-codes of languages in the 1st column)

&n= bsp; l1 l2 l3 total cor.freq. fraction
cmn 845 180   1025 935 0.246117
eng 375 375 750   812.5 0.213872
spa 329 61   390 359.5 0.09463
ara 232 220   452 342 0.090024
hin 240 165   405 322.5 0.084891
ben 181 69   250 215.5 0.056725
rus 144 106   250 197 0.051856
por 178 15   193 185.5 0.048829
jap 122 1   123 122.5 0.032245
pun 109 0   109 109 0.028692
deu 90 28   118 104 0.027376
fra 68 52   120 94 0.024743
jav 85 0   85 85  
wu 77 0   77 77  
mar 75 3     76.5  
tel 70 5   75 72.5  
vie 69 0   69 69  
&nbs= p;            
&nbs= p;           1
7.Now some general stuff. I stopped at Fre= nch cuz it's a Romance language similar to Poruguese and Spanish so it migh= t shift the frequencies of phonemes a bit.
8.Punjabi and Beng= ali are no longer considered as variations of Hindi.

9.Now let's find etymologies for our gismu.
I can recommend th= e following links (warning! unsorted)
for transliterating Arab= ic script robsmart.co.uk =C2=BB Transliteratio= n again =E2=80=A6 now complete
 punjabi dic stomach | Meaning of stomach | Punjabi Dictionary | iJunoon
=
 punjabi dic Punjabi(Gurmukhi,Shahmukhi) to English Dictionar= y:: ACTDPL Punjabi University, Patiala
 no comments Google Translate
 Hin= di stomach meaning in Hindi and English= - Shabdkosh.com | =E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=AC=E0=A5=8D=E0=A4=A6=E0=A4=95=E0=A5=8B= =E0=A4=B6.=E0=A4=95=E0=A5=89=E0=A4=AE
Hindi English to Hindi D= ictionary and Translation
Hindi Hindi English Dictionary Online
 Bengali stomach meaning= in Bengali and English - Shabdkosh.com | =E0=A6=85=E0=A6=AD=E0=A6=BF=E0=A6= =A7=E0=A6=BE=E0=A6=A8.=E0=A4=95=E0=A5=89=E0=A4=AE
 Bengali&= nbsp;stomach - A Bengali-English= dictionary
intend translation Portuguese | English-Portugu= ese dictionary | Reverso Collins
 Japanese Find words - Denshi Jisho
German <= a href=3D"http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/dings.cgi?lang=3Den&service=3Ddeen= &opterrors=3D0&optpro=3D0&query=3Dam+going+to&iservice=3D&a= mp;comment=3D&email=3D" target=3D"_blank">am going to : Dictionary / W= =C3=B6rterbuch (BEOLINGUS, TU Chemnitz)
audio samples&nb= sp;forvo.com
<= br>

10.Some dictionaries contain audio samples.
11.Notice that Punjabi, Bengali and Hindi (together with Urdu) are = quite similar. You usually should get the same sounding.
12. So p= repare the sounding using standard methods of it's adapting to lojban phono= logy as described in the CLL.
13.Now let's use scoreGismu perl ap= p.

For "stomach" we get
cmn vei 0.253388
eng beli 0.22019
spa bientre 0.097425
ara muada 0.092683
hin pet 0.087398
ben pet 0.058401
rus jeludyk 0.053388
por bariga 0.050271
jap xara 0.033198
pun pet 0.028692
deu magen 0.028184
fra vontr 0.025474

With first 4 languages it outputs = ;
vreli velti venli velbi 0.691286 (rating)
With all 12 languages it &= nbsp;outputs
vetli 0.535
(rating)


I'd choose {vetli}= as it's similar to Chinese vei, English belly, Indian "pet" and Romance "v= entr-"


For "back of human body" we = get
cmn beiji 0.253388
eng bak 0.22019
spa espalda 0.097425
ara vyxra 0.092683
hin pic 0.087398
ben pic 0.058401
rus spin 0.053388
por kostas 0.050271
jap se 0.033198
pun pic 0.028692
deu riuk 0.028184
fra dos 0.025474

Top score is
bekpi bajdi= 0.50684 4 langs
bekpi 0.4697 12 langs

I'd choose {bekpi} which reminds me of= Chinese bei, English back, Indian pic and Russian sPIna.

Robin approved them several hours ago in chat but I'm free to sugge= stions.

Notes.
Still 6 languages = is enough. 4 languages are not enough. More than 12 languages is a useless = waste of time (but If you can collect translations please do).

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/vB= UjnOt7lY4J.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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