Received: from mail-ob0-f189.google.com ([209.85.214.189]:42448) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1T4CxO-00013c-Mh; Wed, 22 Aug 2012 08:35:11 -0700 Received: by obbun3 with SMTP id un3sf956882obb.16 for ; Wed, 22 Aug 2012 08:34:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=pAjWWI6jK4FlqeNXt8DPZwZ+XulpQ3HRv/tpcTQqswU=; b=fYrdce0kxvxmzoc9NcYIHtL/AV4I8zz5kvGLEw2yVvOSpkCfKsLf+fB0zDXx80zL1P t1TL8ZGB3dbLzXACYAKCZuVIN76pBv/cVvDPVnfBVP+ygbL9FWGtnNAat4fWOyH/bSXt NlZB7qIaiFZhSIs+QsuQ46r1NIY22F+MikWH2e3AkW216U/GuAI8Nub4NbKuI6PdkCzC ADQd97dDQsbA9O/xsq8ejMACqQ0K9jlhVgtMDyeOY6oib2kjCNYITg4j9saWcvFn9/yK A1hNQwrZf2HtTeacycQ8nA4dc54bJukWB95z3Y8EYHm5VmqdsvKBQbHtrEVdmp+Mkht1 Q0dA== Received: by 10.68.195.72 with SMTP id ic8mr3331971pbc.8.1345649686916; Wed, 22 Aug 2012 08:34:46 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.197.72 with SMTP id is8ls1871516pbc.5.gmail; Wed, 22 Aug 2012 08:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.237.163 with SMTP id vd3mr1412338pbc.9.1345649685954; Wed, 22 Aug 2012 08:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 08:34:45 -0700 (PDT) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <038ed37f-3328-450d-85d4-cbbf993fcea8@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <86e78277-c410-4da2-bf88-2c3b28752932@googlegroups.com> <18F003DF-48B8-4ABA-915C-C4A4B7DF8CA1@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Two new gismu, "stomach" and "back of body". And a proposal for an updated method of generating gismu. MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1300_26215957.1345649685200" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_1300_26215957.1345649685200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We need a gismu for sports if we have a gismu for "gymnast". On Wednesday, August 22, 2012 6:12:35 PM UTC+4, Matt Arnold wrote: > > Sebastian, > > How is it possible for a bicycle to have a number of wheels other than=20 > two, and still be a bicycle? It has the prefix "bi". If it has one wheel= ,=20 > it's a unicycle. If it has three wheels, it's a tricycle.=20 > > I am completely in favor of a Lojban word for a human-powered wheeled=20 > vehicle regardless of the number of wheels, so consider this a friendly= =20 > amendment to your proposal.=20 > > -Eppcott > > > On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 5:06 PM, Sebastian > > wrote: > >> coi, >> I like the method of generating gismu, but if we should add more gismu I= =20 >> think there may be several other basic concepts with higher priority. >> For example "bicycle", for which I don't find "relxilma'e" appropriate= =20 >> since bicycles may have more or less than two wheels. A gismu for bicycl= e=20 >> (with short rafsi) would also be useful for making words for motorcycle,= =20 >> moped etc. >> A gismu for gender (with a standard place) would also be very useful,=20 >> especially for a sociologist as myself. And that would end the endless= =20 >> discussions here about this vague, but universal concept. >> And if we want a gismu for stomach, so why don't we add gismu for kidney= =20 >> (and perhaps more organs) as well? Why just stomach? >> And "back" already has two different lujvo: "cuyti'e" for upper back=20 >> respectively befti'e for lower back. If we would like to refer to the wh= ole=20 >> back, so why don't we just use "cutyjoibefti'e" or "xadyti'e". I can't s= ee=20 >> the need for gismu for that. >> mu'omi'e sebastian >> >> >> Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone >> >> 21 aug 2012 kl. 19:00 skrev iesk >: >> >> coi la gleki >> >> Just commenting on one point, the German source words. >> >> pe'i If German "Magen" and "R=C3=BCcken" were to be considered, they sho= uld be=20 >> transcribed "magyn" and "rikyn", respectively. IPA is, more or less,=20 >> ['ma=CB=90g=C9=99n]/[ma=CB=90gn=CC=A9] and ['=CA=81=CA=8Fk=C9=99n]/[=CA= =81=CA=8Fkn=CC=A9]. "=C3=BC" is customarily transcribed as=20 >> "=D1=8E" in, eg, Russian, which would be lojbanised as "iu", but it's a = simple=20 >> front vowel in German, the nearest Lojban equivalent of which is probabl= y=20 >> "i". Also, although "R=C3=BCcken" is historically "r=C3=BCck" + "en" (I = guess), the=20 >> "en" in "R=C3=BCcken" is pe'i not a productive suffix, so probably it sh= ouldn't=20 >> be removed before Lojbanisation. I'm not sure about that last point, tho= ugh. >> >> Also, I have of course not the slightest idea if this changes the outcom= e=20 >> of your gismu generation. >> >> -iesk >> >> Le mardi 21 ao=C3=BBt 2012 17:07:36 UTC+2, la gleki a =C3=A9crit : >>> >>> Robin wanted those two new gismu and so I started preparing their=20 >>> sounding. >>> >>> At first I asked myself "Are those frequencies taken from Atlas of the= =20 >>> world true or correct? Are there any flaws in the method of generating= =20 >>> gismu from 6 languages?" >>> >>> So here is my new method. >>> >>> 1.At first I opened this wikipedia article.=20 >>> Unfortunately Wikipedia just removed the data that we need in it's newe= r=20 >>> revisions of the page. >>> 2.Write out the number of native (I'll call them L1) speakers of first= =20 >>> most common languages. Determine the number of L2 speakers as L2=3D(tot= al=20 >>> number of speakers - L1 speakers). >>> 3. In one special case we have L3 speakers. >>> 4. Determine the corrected frequency as =3DL1+L2 / 2 + L3 / 3 >>> 5. Leave first 12 languages (I'll tell you later why 12) >>> 5. Convert them to fractions so that the sum=3D1. >>> 6.Therefore we get (3-letter ISO-codes of languages in the 1st column) >>> >>> l1 l2 l3 total cor.freq. fraction cmn 845 180 1025 935 0.246117 = =20 >>> eng 375 375 750 812.5 0.213872 spa 329 61 390 359.5 0.09463 ara= =20 >>> 232 220 452 342 0.090024 hin 240 165 405 322.5 0.084891 ben 181 6= 9=20 >>> 250 215.5 0.056725 rus 144 106 250 197 0.051856 por 178 15 193= =20 >>> 185.5 0.048829 jap 122 1 123 122.5 0.032245 pun 109 0 109 109=20 >>> 0.028692 deu 90 28 118 104 0.027376 fra 68 52 120 94 0.024743 ja= v=20 >>> 85 0 85 85 wu 77 0 77 77 mar 75 3 76.5 tel 70 5 75= =20 >>> 72.5 vie 69 0 69 69 1=20 >>> 7.Now some general stuff. I stopped at French cuz it's a Romance=20 >>> language similar to Poruguese and Spanish so it might shift the frequen= cies=20 >>> of phonemes a bit. >>> 8.Punjabi and Bengali are no longer considered as variations of Hindi. >>> >>> 9.Now let's find etymologies for our gismu. >>> I can recommend the following links (warning! unsorted) >>> for transliterating Arabic script robsmart.co.uk =C2=BB Transliteration= =20 >>> again =E2=80=A6 now complete punjabi=20 >>> dic stomach | Meaning of stomach | Punjabi Dictionary | iJunoon punjabi=20 >>> dic Punjabi(Gurmukhi,**Shahmukhi) to English Dictionary:: ACTDPL=20 >>> Punjabi University, Patiala = no=20 >>> comments Google Translate Hindi stomach=20 >>> meaning in Hindi and English - Shabdkosh.com | =E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=AC=E0=A5= =8D=E0=A4=A6=E0=A4=95=E0=A5=8B=E0=A4=B6.=E0=A4=95=E0=A5=89=E0=A4=AEHindi = English=20 >>> to Hindi Dictionary and Translation >>> Hindi Hindi English Dictionary Online=20 >>> Bengali stomach meaning in Bengali and English - Shabdkosh.com |=20 >>> =E0=A6=85=E0=A6=AD=E0=A6=BF=E0=A6=A7=E0=A6=BE=E0=A6=A8.=E0=A4=95=E0=A5= =89=E0=A4=AE=20 >>> Bengali stomach - A Bengali-English dictionary intend=20 >>> translation Portuguese | English-Portuguese dictionary | Reverso Collin= s=20 >>> Japanese Find words - Denshi JishoGerman am=20 >>> going to : Dictionary / W=C3=B6rterbuch (BEOLINGUS, TU Chemnitz)=20 >>> audio samples forvo.com >>> >>> >>> 10.Some dictionaries contain audio samples. >>> 11.Notice that Punjabi, Bengali and Hindi (together with Urdu) are quit= e=20 >>> similar. You usually should get the same sounding. >>> 12. So prepare the sounding using standard methods of it's adapting to= =20 >>> lojban phonology as described in the CLL. >>> 13.Now let's use scoreGismu perl app. >>> >>> For "stomach" we get >>> cmn vei 0.253388 eng beli 0.22019 spa bientre 0.097425 ara muada= =20 >>> 0.092683 hin pet 0.087398 ben pet 0.058401 rus jeludyk 0.053388 por= =20 >>> bariga 0.050271 jap xara 0.033198 pun pet 0.028692 deu magen 0.02818= 4 =20 >>> fra vontr 0.025474=20 >>> With first 4 languages it outputs=20 >>> *vreli velti venli velbi* 0.691286 (rating) With all 12 languages it= =20 >>> outputs *vetli* 0.535 >>> (rating)=20 >>> >>> >>> I'd choose {vetli} as it's similar to Chinese vei, English belly, India= n=20 >>> "pet" and Romance "ventr-" >>> >>> >>> For "back of human body" we get >>> cmn beiji 0.253388 eng bak 0.22019 spa espalda 0.097425 ara vyxra= =20 >>> 0.092683 hin pic 0.087398 ben pic 0.058401 rus spin 0.053388 por=20 >>> kostas 0.050271 jap se 0.033198 pun pic 0.028692 deu riuk 0.028184 = =20 >>> fra dos 0.025474=20 >>> Top score is bekpi bajdi 0.50684 4 langs bekpi 0.4697 12 langs=20 >>> I'd choose {bekpi} which reminds me of Chinese bei, English back, India= n=20 >>> pic and Russian sPIna. >>> >>> Robin approved them several hours ago in chat but I'm free to=20 >>> suggestions. >>> >>> *Notes.* >>> Still 6 languages is enough. 4 languages are not enough. More than 12= =20 >>> languages is a useless waste of time (but If you can collect translatio= ns=20 >>> please do). >>> >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s=20 >> "lojban" group. >> To view this discussion on the web visit=20 >> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/DrO1ONmWqngJ. >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 >> lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> For more options, visit this group at=20 >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s=20 >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 >> lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> For more options, visit this group at=20 >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lo= jban/-/-xh5V45xFxsJ. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. ------=_Part_1300_26215957.1345649685200 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We need a gismu for sports if we have a gismu for "gymnast".

On Wedn= esday, August 22, 2012 6:12:35 PM UTC+4, Matt Arnold wrote:
Sebastian,

How is it = possible for a bicycle to have a number of wheels other than two, and still= be a bicycle? It has the prefix "bi".  If it has one wheel, it's a unicycle. If it has three wheels, it's a t= ricycle. 

I am completely in favor of a Lojban word= for a human-powered wheeled vehicle regardless of the number of wheels, so= consider this a friendly amendment to your proposal. 

-Eppcott


O= n Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 5:06 PM, Sebastian <so.co= ...@gmail.com> wrote:
coi,
I like the method of generating gismu, but if we should add more gismu I t= hink there may be several other basic concepts with higher priority.
For example "bicycle", for which I don't find "relxilma'e" appropriate= since bicycles may have more or less than two wheels. A gismu for bicycle = (with short rafsi) would also be useful for making words for motorcycle, mo= ped etc.
A gismu for gender (with a standard place) would also be very useful, = especially for a sociologist as myself. And that would end the endless disc= ussions here about this vague, but universal concept.
And if we w= ant a gismu for stomach, so why don't we add gismu for kidney (and perhaps = more organs) as well? Why just stomach?
And "back" already has two different lujvo: "cuyti'e" for upper back r= espectively befti'e for lower back. If we would like to refer to the whole = back, so why don't we just use "cutyjoibefti'e" or "xadyti'e". I can't see = the need for gismu for that.
mu'omi'e sebastian


Skickat fr=C3=A5n min iPhone

21 aug 2012 kl. 19:00 skrev iesk <pa....@gmx.de>:=

coi la gleki

Just commenti= ng on one point, the German source words.

pe'i If German "Magen" and= "R=C3=BCcken" were to be considered, they should be transcribed "magyn" an= d "rikyn", respectively. IPA is, more or less, ['ma=CB=90g=C9=99n]/[ma=CB= =90gn=CC=A9] and ['=CA=81=CA=8Fk=C9=99n]/[=CA=81=CA=8Fkn=CC=A9]. "=C3=BC" i= s customarily transcribed as "=D1=8E" in, eg, Russian, which would be lojba= nised as "iu", but it's a simple front vowel in German, the nearest Lojban = equivalent of which is probably "i". Also, although "R=C3=BCcken" is histor= ically "r=C3=BCck" + "en" (I guess), the "en" in "R=C3=BCcken" is pe'i not = a productive suffix, so probably it shouldn't be removed before Lojbanisati= on. I'm not sure about that last point, though.

Also, I have of course not the slightest idea if this changes the outco= me of your gismu generation.

-iesk

Le mardi 21 ao=C3=BBt 2012= 17:07:36 UTC+2, la gleki a =C3=A9crit :
Robin wanted those two new gismu and so I started preparing their sounding.=

At first I asked myself "Are those frequencies taken fr= om Atlas of the world true or correct? Are there any flaws in the method of= generating gismu from 6 languages?"

So here is my new method.

1.At= first I opened this wikipedia article. Unfortunately Wikipedia just removed t= he data that we need in it's newer revisions of the page.
2.Write out the number of native (I'll call them L1) speakers of first= most common languages. Determine the number of L2 speakers as L2=3D(total = number of speakers - L1 speakers).
3. In one special case we have= L3 speakers.
4. Determine the corrected frequency as =3DL1+L2 / 2 + L3 / 3
5. Leave first 12 languages (I'll tell you later why 12)
5. Con= vert them to fractions so that the sum=3D1.
6.Therefore we get (3= -letter ISO-codes of languages in the 1st column)

&n= bsp; l1 l2 l3 total cor.freq. fraction
cmn 845 180   1025 935 0.246117
eng 375 375 750   812.5 0.213872
spa 329 61   390 359.5 0.09463
ara 232 220   452 342 0.090024
hin 240 165   405 322.5 0.084891
ben 181 69   250 215.5 0.056725
rus 144 106   250 197 0.051856
por 178 15   193 185.5 0.048829
jap 122 1   123 122.5 0.032245
pun 109 0   109 109 0.028692
deu 90 28   118 104 0.027376
fra 68 52   120 94 0.024743
jav 85 0   85 85  
wu 77 0   77 77  
mar 75 3     76.5  
tel 70 5   75 72.5  
vie 69 0   69 69  
&nbs= p;            
&nbs= p;           1
7.Now some general stuff. I stopped at Fre= nch cuz it's a Romance language similar to Poruguese and Spanish so it migh= t shift the frequencies of phonemes a bit.
8.Punjabi and Beng= ali are no longer considered as variations of Hindi.

9.Now let's find etymologies for our gismu.
I= can recommend the following links (warning! unsorted)
for transliterating Ara= bic script robsmart.co.uk =C2=BB Transliterati= on again =E2=80=A6 now complete
 punjabi = dic stomach | Meaning of stomach | Punjabi Dictionary= | iJunoon
 punjabi = dic Punjabi(Gurmukhi,Shahmukhi) to English Dictionary:: ACTDPL= Punjabi University, Patiala
 no comme= nts Google Translate
<= dt style=3D"font-size:medium;font-family:'Times New Roman'">  Hindi stomach meaning in Hindi an= d English - Shabdkosh.com | =E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=AC=E0=A5=8D=E0=A4=A6=E0=A4=95= =E0=A5=8B=E0=A4=B6.=E0=A4=95=E0=A5=89=E0=A4=AE
Hindi English to Hindi Dictionary and Translation
Hindi Hindi English Dictionary Onli= ne
 Bengali&= nbsp;stomach meaning in Bengali and Eng= lish - Shabdkosh.com | =E0=A6=85=E0=A6=AD=E0=A6=BF=E0=A6=A7=E0=A6=BE=E0=A6= =A8.=E0=A4=95=E0=A5=89=E0=A4=AE
 Bengali&= nbsp;stomach - A Bengali-English= dictionary
intend tr= anslation Portuguese | English-Portuguese dictionary | Reverso Collins<= /dt>
 Japanese=  Find words - Denshi Jisho
German am going to : Di= ctionary / W=C3=B6rterbuch (BEOLINGUS, TU Chemnitz)
audio samples forvo.com


10.Some dictionarie= s contain audio samples.
11.Notice that Punjabi, Bengali and Hind= i (together with Urdu) are quite similar. You usually should get the same s= ounding.
12. So prepare the sounding using standard methods of it's adapting to= lojban phonology as described in the CLL.
13.Now let's use score= Gismu perl app.

For "stomach" we get
cmn vei 0.253388
eng beli 0.22019
spa bientre 0.097425
ara muada 0.092683
hin pet 0.087398
ben pet 0.058401
rus jeludyk 0.053388
por bariga 0.050271
jap xara 0.033198
pun pet 0.028692
deu magen 0.028184
fra vontr 0.025474

With first 4 languages it outputs = ;
vreli velti venli velbi 0.691286 (rating)
With all 12 languages it &= nbsp;outputs
vetli 0.535
(rating)


I'd choose {vetli}= as it's similar to Chinese vei, English belly, Indian "pet" and Romance "v= entr-"


For "back of human body" we get
cmn beiji 0.253388
eng bak 0.22019
spa espalda 0.097425
ara vyxra 0.092683
hin pic 0.087398
ben pic 0.058401
rus spin 0.053388
por kostas 0.050271
jap se 0.033198
pun pic 0.028692
deu riuk 0.028184
fra dos 0.025474

Top score is
bekpi bajdi= 0.50684 4 langs
bekpi 0.4697 12 langs

I'd choose {bekpi} which reminds me of= Chinese bei, English back, Indian pic and Russian sPIna.

Robin approved them several hours ago in chat but I'm free to sugge= stions.

Notes.
Still 6 languages is enough. 4 = languages are not enough. More than 12 languages is a useless waste of time= (but If you can collect translations please do).

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com= /d/msg/lojban/-/DrO1ONmWqngJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+un...@googl= egroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/= lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+un...@googl= egroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/= lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/-x= h5V45xFxsJ.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
------=_Part_1300_26215957.1345649685200--