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Am 24.08.2012 20:27, schrieb Jonathan Jones:
> On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 6:03 AM, la .lindar. <lindarthebard@gmail.com 
> <mailto:lindarthebard@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     On Friday, 24 August 2012 04:25:56 UTC-7, selpa'i wrote:
>
>         I argue that no new gismu are needed and that {carna} can be
>         used as is.
>
>
>     Oh..... kay....
>
>         I wrote a description of how I use carna, with a picture as an
>         attachment.
>         I hope it explains my point of view (no pun intended) well
>         enough.
>         Open the picture before reading this or it will be impossible
>         to follow.
>
>
>     Yeah, even if I wasn't drunk posting I couldn't understand that
>     huge body of text. If using a basic word requires collegiate or
>     university level maths/physics then I'll drop every fucking
>     account right now and go learn Volapuk just to spite all of you.
>     If you can't phrase it so a drunk / child can understand it, your
>     idea is bad and you should feel bad. zo'o
>
>
> While I am in agreement with Lindar on this ^ point, it doesn't really 
> matter, because while you (selpa'i) may have indeed developed a means 
> of describing rotational motion from within the confines of the 
> current definition of carna, you completely overlook the fact that 
> carna is sometimes used to mean "x1 turns to x3", which is a different 
> kind of rotating, and is the REASON we need at least one new word.

It's not a different kind of rotating. You still rotate around some axis 
in some direction. In "x1 turns to x3", x3 is the direction, and the 
rotation stops once x1 faces x3. It's still an event of carna, which was 
my point.

> From my quick glance through the corpus, in fact, carna is used to 
> mean that as much as 2 out of 3 times. Since any change to the 
> language needs to have minimum (and preferably no) impact on past 
> usage [...].

It breaks no usage. As explained above, there is no difference between 
rotating and turning that would require a seperate gismu.

> So, selpa'i, can you translate "Gerald turned to the North and waved." 
> for us, using carna?

(1) la. gerald. cu carna fi lo berti gi'e xance desku rinsa

Implicitly says that Gerald stops once he faces north. This is obvious 
enough for normal contexts. When in doubt, you can specify the final 
orientation through other means, for instance:

(2a) la. gerald. cu carna co'u lo nu se farna lo berti
     "Gerald turns until he faces north."

And possibly

(2b) la. gerald. cu carna co'u fa'a lo berti

Again, (2a) and (2b) are only necessary when (1) would cause confusion, 
which is rare.

I would also like to mention that you can often just use {farna} by 
itself, especially since the rotation isn't what matters, it's the 
change of facing that matters. (Often, not always.)

(3) la. gerald. cu binxo lo ka se farna lo berti kei gi'e xance desku rinsa
     "Gerald becomes facing towards north and waves."

I see no problem with any of these sentences. If you need to clearly 
talk about full rotations, there are also means for that, like for 
example {carlai}, which xorxes proposed, but which nobody cared to 
acknowledge.
I think it is clear that nothing of this breaks any usage and is, as far 
as I can tell, what {carna} has always meant.

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

-- 
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo

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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><tt>Am 24.08.2012 20:27, schrieb
        Jonathan Jones:<br>
      </tt></div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAMKwHj3fyOpj3Z-2kZ1Z9_ufcnxu10_8tZNiusUOfj51n5YVhA@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="gmail_quote"><tt>On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 6:03 AM, la
          .lindar. <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:lindarthebard@gmail.com" target="_blank">lindarthebard@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
        </tt>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
          .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
          <div class="im"><tt>On Friday, 24 August 2012 04:25:56 UTC-7,
              selpa'i wrote:</tt>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
              style="margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
              solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> <tt>I argue that
                  no new gismu are needed and that {carna} can be used
                  as is. <br>
                </tt></div>
            </blockquote>
            <div><tt><br>
              </tt></div>
          </div>
          <div><tt>Oh..... kay....</tt></div>
          <div class="im">
            <div><tt>&nbsp;</tt></div>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
              style="margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
              solid;padding-left:1ex">
              <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><tt> I wrote a
                  description of how I use carna, with a picture as an
                  attachment. <br>
                  I hope it explains my point of view (no pun intended)
                  well enough. <br>
                  Open the picture before reading this or it will be
                  impossible to follow.
                </tt></div>
            </blockquote>
            <div><tt><br>
              </tt></div>
          </div>
          <div><tt>Yeah, even if I wasn't drunk posting I couldn't
              understand that huge body of text. If using a basic word
              requires collegiate or university level maths/physics then
              I'll drop every fucking account right now and go learn
              Volapuk just to spite all of you. If you can't phrase it
              so a drunk / child can understand it, your idea is bad and
              you should feel bad. zo'o</tt></div>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
      <tt><br>
        While I am in agreement with Lindar on this ^ point, it doesn't
        really matter, because while you (selpa'i) may have indeed
        developed a means of describing rotational motion from within
        the confines of the current definition of carna, you completely
        overlook the fact that carna is sometimes used to mean "x1 turns
        to x3", which is a different kind of rotating, and is the REASON
        we need at least one new word.<br>
      </tt></blockquote>
    <tt><br>
      It's not a different kind of rotating. You still rotate around
      some axis in some direction. In "x1 turns to x3", x3 is the
      direction, and the rotation stops once x1 faces x3. It's still an
      event of carna, which was my point.<br>
      <br>
    </tt>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAMKwHj3fyOpj3Z-2kZ1Z9_ufcnxu10_8tZNiusUOfj51n5YVhA@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <tt>From my quick glance through the corpus, in fact, carna is
        used to mean that as much as 2 out of 3 times. Since any change
        to the language needs to have minimum (and preferably no) impact
        on past usage [...].<br>
      </tt></blockquote>
    <tt><br>
      It breaks no usage. As explained above, there is no difference
      between rotating and turning that would require a seperate gismu.<br>
      <br>
    </tt>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAMKwHj3fyOpj3Z-2kZ1Z9_ufcnxu10_8tZNiusUOfj51n5YVhA@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <tt>So, selpa'i, can you translate "Gerald turned to the North and
        waved." for us, using carna?<br clear="all">
      </tt></blockquote>
    <tt><br>
      (1) la. gerald. cu carna fi lo berti gi'e xance desku rinsa<br>
      <br>
      Implicitly says that Gerald stops once he faces north. This is
      obvious enough for normal contexts. When in doubt, you can specify
      the final orientation through other means, for instance:<br>
      <br>
      (2a) la. gerald. cu carna co'u lo nu se farna lo berti<br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "Gerald turns until he faces north."<br>
      <br>
      And possibly<br>
      <br>
      (2b) la. gerald. cu carna co'u fa'a lo berti<br>
      <br>
      Again, (2a) and (2b) are only necessary when (1) would cause
      confusion, which is rare.<br>
      <br>
      I would also like to mention that you can often just use {farna}
      by itself, especially since the rotation isn't what matters, it's
      the change of facing that matters. (Often, not always.)<br>
      <br>
      (3) la. gerald. cu binxo lo ka se farna lo berti kei gi'e xance
      desku rinsa<br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "Gerald becomes facing towards north and waves."<br>
      <br>
      I see no problem with any of these sentences. If you need to
      clearly talk about full rotations, there are also means for that,
      like for example {carlai}, which xorxes proposed, but which nobody
      cared to acknowledge.<br>
      I think it is clear that nothing of this breaks any usage and is,
      as far as I can tell, what {carna} has always meant.<br>
      <br>
      mu'o mi'e la selpa'i<br>
    </tt>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72"><tt>-- 
pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo</tt></pre>
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