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Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 21:54:39 +0100
From: And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] The global problem of mirror paired predicates
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For some scales, the polarity is not an arbitrary choice but an intrinsic c=
orollary of the nature of the scale. E.g. long is positive, short is negati=
ve, and you can see this from comparing "It's long on length" (=3D it's lon=
g) and "it's short on shortness" (=3D long), i.e. two negatives make a posi=
tive. And the positive has much length and the negative little. Where the s=
cale is itself negative, as with near:far, the amount of being away from (n=
ot at) something, the negative member is the one with more of the negative =
property, so near is pos and far is neg: "it's near to being near" vs "it's=
 far from being far" (=3D it's near).

A language ought to reflect this sort of logical patterning in predicates.

For your 8 examples
> 1. left - right

no polarity

> 2. south - north

no polarity

> 3. east - west

no polarity

> 4. female - male

no polarity. But if female:male is understood as concave:convex (as in term=
inology of cable connectors), male is pos and female is neg.

> 5. white - black

clearly it can have polarity, but it depends on whether the scale is define=
d as degree of whiteness or degree of blackness; either way, grey is in the=
 middle

> 6. expensive - cheap

you'd expect expensive to be pos, but I can't think of a double neg example=
 to prove this

> 7. healthy - ill

healthy pos, ill neg, tho I can't think of probative example

> 8. good - bad

"bad at being bad at it" (=3D good at) proves that "bad" is neg in at least=
 this sense

--And.


Gleki Arxokuna, On 10/08/2012 11:08:
> There are several pairs of predicates that can be expressed in a differen=
t way.
> 1. left - right
> 2. south - north
> 3. east - west
> 4. female - male
> 5. white - black
> 6. expensive - cheap
> 7. healthy - ill
> 8. good - bad
>
> Some conlangs like Esperanto have only one root for each pair and use pre=
fixes (e.g. "anti-") to express the second member of the set.
> So
> left =3D anti-right
> ill =3D anti-healthy
>
> or
> patro - father
> patrino - mother (suffix -in- for females)
>
> Ithkuil employs a different approach. It uses two affixes, something like=
 "plus" and "minus" to determine where on the scale we are present.
> so e.g. we have a root for "good/bad" (let it be ROOT1) and for "left-rig=
ht" (let it be ROOT2) and mark them with prefixes.
>
> good =3D plus-ROOT1
> bad =3D minus-ROOT2
> right =3D plus-ROOT1
> left =3D minus-ROOT2
>
> If such policy applied in Lojbanistan left-handed people would definitely=
 leave the community as "minus" prefix is associated both with "bad" and "l=
eft hand".
> Somehow we must choose what is positive and what is negative.
> Therefore I state that
> *AFFIX POLICY FOR SCALE PREDICATE IN ESPERANTO AND ITHKUIL IS NOT CULTURA=
LLY NEUTRAL.*
> The only way to be culturally neutral is the policy of many natural langu=
ages, i.e. having two separate words for each member of the pair.
> In Lojban we have {zunle - pritu}, {bemro - snanu} etc.
> Note that even in Esperanto separate root appeared for cheap instead of j=
ust "anti-expensive" which proves that such policy is naturalistic.
>
> (This message appeared after discussing "clockwise" and "counterclockwise=
" concepts in a separate topic that in my opinion also deserve separate wor=
ds).
>
> Other solutions are culturally non-neutral.
> Almost every person belongs to some social minority: left-handed minority=
, sexual minorities, ethnic minorities. But together they constitute MAJORI=
TY of the population.
>
> In other words only the current policy of Lojban is best.
> Yes, two separate words instead of one+affix is the cost of such neutrali=
ty.
> (If you wanna be non-neutral please use {tolpritu} instead of {zunle}, it=
's absolutely not a problem).
>
>
>
>
> --
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