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From: la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] "Any" and {ro}
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On Friday, August 24, 2012 5:08:51 AM UTC+4, And Rosta wrote:
>
> la gleki, On 20/08/2012 09:53: 
>
> > On Thursday, August 16, 2012 5:46:19 AM UTC+4, And Rosta wrote: 
> >     So "mi citka ma kau" would mean not "I eat anything" but rather "I 
> eat whatever it is that I eat" -- because "do djuno lo du'u mi citka ma 
> kau" means "Whatever it is that I eat, you know know that I eat it" = "You 
> know what I eat". 
> > 
> >     That makes "mi citka ma kau" still possibly useful, but doesn't give 
> us a way to say "I eat anything". For that, I suggest "ro da su'o mu'ei ku 
> mi citka da", "ro da ka'e ku mi citka da", "I could eat anything", or else 
> "ro da ro mu'ei ku mi citka da", "I would eat anything". 
> > 
> > Two questions. 
> > 1. Don't you think that it can mean "for each specific x in a 
> > possible world it's possible/necessary that I will eat it". 
>
> It means "For each x, it is the case that in all/some 
> circumstances/eventualities I will/would/can/could eat it". Which is what 
> "I will/would/can/could eat anything means", no? 
>
 

Please don't translate {su'omu'ei} as "...I will/would/can/could eat it " 
because it explains nothing.
Let's use your definition from the wiki for instance.
*mi su'o mu'ei citka* = "... there are possible worlds wherein I eat"

Let's try to describe "da" which will mean some apples present in our 
basket.
We'll describe the situation *"I could eat any apple from that basket"*.
Let's take {ro da su'omu'ei ku mi mi citka da}. It will mean "For each x 
which can mean different things in different possible worlds I eat this x". 
However, "I could eat any of these apples" describes the apples present in 
this world.
"any" in this sentence means that the choice is distributed over real 
apples, not over what each apple turns into     in some possible worlds.
In other words, "da su'omu'ei ku" can mean one specific object that can be 
other than apple but "da su'omu'ei ku" doesn't express that these options 
refer only to the set of apples present in this basket.
I'd express our situation as {mi su'omu'ei ku citka lo su'a plise pe ti poi 
lanka}

And {mi su'omu'ei ku citka lo su'anai plise pe ti poi lanka}  - describes 
some specific apples present in this basket. = "I could eat some specific 
apples (that I have in mind) present in this basket".

>
> > 2. Even if I'm wrong then {any} in this example must mean not 
> > choosing any specific object. 
>
> I don't understand... 
>
>
> --And. 
>
 

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<br><br>On Friday, August 24, 2012 5:08:51 AM UTC+4, And Rosta wrote:<block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-le=
ft: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">la gleki, On 20/08/2012 09:53:
<br>
<br>&gt; On Thursday, August 16, 2012 5:46:19 AM UTC+4, And Rosta wrote:
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; So "mi citka ma kau" would mean not "I eat anything"=
 but rather "I eat whatever it is that I eat" -- because "do djuno lo du'u =
mi citka ma kau" means "Whatever it is that I eat, you know know that I eat=
 it" =3D "You know what I eat".
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; That makes "mi citka ma kau" still possibly useful, =
but doesn't give us a way to say "I eat anything". For that, I suggest "ro =
da su'o mu'ei ku mi citka da", "ro da ka'e ku mi citka da", "I could eat an=
ything", or else "ro da ro mu'ei ku mi citka da", "I would eat anything".
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; Two questions.
<br>&gt; 1. Don't you think that it can mean "for each specific x in a
<br>&gt; possible world it's possible/necessary that I will eat it".
<br>
<br>It means "For each x, it is the case that in all/some circumstances/eve=
ntualities I will/would/can/could eat it". Which is what "I will/would/can/=
could eat anything means", no?
<br></blockquote><div>&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div><div>Please don't tra=
nslate {su'omu'ei} as "...I will/would/can/could eat it&nbsp;" because it e=
xplains nothing.</div><div>Let's use your definition from the wiki for inst=
ance.<br><em style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana, Arial, san=
s-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px; ">mi su'o mu'ei citka</em><spa=
n style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; fo=
nt-size: 12px; line-height: 18px; ">&nbsp;=3D "... there are possible world=
s wherein I eat"</span></div></div><div><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);=
 font-family: Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 18p=
x; "><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:=
 Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px; ">Let's tr=
y to describe "da" which will mean some apples present in our basket.</span=
></div><div><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana, Arial=
, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px; ">We'll describe the situ=
ation <b>"I could eat any apple from that basket"</b>.</span></div><div>Let=
's take {<span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana, Arial, s=
ans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px; ">ro da su'omu'ei ku mi mi c=
itka da</span>}. It will mean "For each x which can mean different things i=
n different possible worlds I eat this x".&nbsp;</div><div><span style=3D"c=
olor: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12p=
x; line-height: 18px; ">However, "I could eat any of these apples" describe=
s the apples present in this world.</span></div><div><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; lin=
e-height: 18px; ">"any" in this sentence means that the choice is distribut=
ed over real apples, not over what each apple turns into &nbsp; &nbsp; in s=
ome possible worlds.</span></div><div><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); f=
ont-family: Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px;=
 ">In other words, "da su'omu'ei ku" can mean one specific object that can =
be other than apple but&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); fon=
t-family: Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px; "=
>"da su'omu'ei ku" doesn't express that these options refer only to the set=
 of apples present in this basket.</span></div><div><span style=3D"color: r=
gb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line=
-height: 18px; ">I'd express our situation as {mi su'omu'ei ku citka lo su'=
a plise&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdan=
a, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px; ">pe ti poi lanka=
}</span></div><div><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana=
, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px; "><br></span><span=
 style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; fon=
t-size: 12px; line-height: 18px; ">And {mi su'omu'ei ku citka lo su'anai pl=
ise&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana, A=
rial, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px; ">pe ti poi lanka}</s=
pan>&nbsp; - describes some specific apples present in this basket. =3D "I =
could eat some specific apples (that I have in mind) present in this basket=
".<span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana, Arial, sans-ser=
if; font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px; "><br></span></div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>&gt; 2. Even if I'm wrong then {any} in this example must mean not
<br>&gt; choosing any specific object.
<br>
<br>I don't understand...
<br>
<br>
<br>--And.
<br></blockquote><div>&nbsp;</div>

<p></p>

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