Received: from mail-qa0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]:58454) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1T5E42-00050m-68; Sat, 25 Aug 2012 03:58:13 -0700 Received: by qadz32 with SMTP id z32sf1718170qad.16 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2012 03:57:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=dzcX23rB3ooAzJoH9JmpsP+VN7+H1VFnKAX1Efl9cYE=; b=WKG462USycuNdVoW4qEDB6C4JEXqCrTESSbZcBDO0JDY6l9hdrSjNzpRjBsc58Jn8Y jXukIZr4Qpl+H6sKZnl75QseuUi2GkbyMjcq2dTLpCI6UE0QBLX8Qhn9uKUzhODrMtRp YcUpzlPXDddwyGE3yI49Ah91m3KZsWc/9qaSs/PTWr2AttQYtZGsyXER+OQ65MLPV4Gd JpnmeRZ19WpClvn6VhQiNQ2itjV9yAbC8rZPIuuBSgha4Ckj+jOeLIi3bIjg1+x+cUHl kZy/H53VHk4TjtWFiWVrFamvK/2lx/n0Eu7tGtVZB4fXIh7YpyONuUTDxByyoKH6ui7f vt7w== Received: by 10.68.197.70 with SMTP id is6mr1604918pbc.14.1345892266725; Sat, 25 Aug 2012 03:57:46 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.231.225 with SMTP id tj1ls1652833pbc.4.gmail; Sat, 25 Aug 2012 03:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.196.136 with SMTP id im8mr1612279pbc.5.1345892265898; Sat, 25 Aug 2012 03:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 03:57:44 -0700 (PDT) From: la gleki To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <07dea32c-f913-48e6-97eb-c6618e1dec5a@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <20120825094606.GA11699@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> References: <9c8f151a-c423-4d97-9f5c-d2c5fcade18c@googlegroups.com> <502880CD.8070301@gmail.com> <9bab9050-eb6b-45e5-ab08-9b982d8746dc@googlegroups.com> <5036B43B.8040703@gmail.com> <503764C4.6000706@gmx.de> <20120825094606.GA11699@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Direction of Rotation MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: ls.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates internal as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3_26047311.1345892265000" X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_3_26047311.1345892265000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Saturday, August 25, 2012 1:46:06 PM UTC+4, Robin Powell wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 01:25:56PM +0200, selpa'i wrote: > [snip] > > Thus, since all we need to define the direction is an axis ML, > > which has an inherent orientation as mentioned above, and a point > > B *relative* to our starting orientation towards AL', {carna}, > > which has both these as x2 and x3 respectively is plenty to > > express clockwise and counter-clockwise motion. carna2 will not > > need to be specified for bodies that overlap almost completely > > with the axis ML, like for instance a standing human being, and > > for objects like a disk that's lying flat on the plane, we only > > need to choose the polarity of vector ML. > > The problem is that you've ignored the hard part: how to specify the > vector ML. > > We have, to the best of my knowledge, no compact way to do that *at > all*. At the end you talk about specifying only the polarity; I > don't even know how to do *that* in compact fasion. > Yes, that's the whole thing. Someone said that i was trying to introduce an extra term called "line of sight" to the schemes. But the fact is that there is always an observer. look at those terms: "higher" (according to whom????), "to the left" (who sees that it's to the left???) {ti pritu mi} - what does the word {mi} really mean here? *What if I stand on my head? Then it would immediately change to {ti zunle mi}. So what does the word {pritu} really denote???? How can you explain it?* * * The answer is that *1. {mi} is a vector*. And *2. {mi} determines what is left, right, above and below*. Therefore, if you want to specify direction of rotation you will come up with {left/right/above/below} anyway. By the way, above/below is automatically derived from left/right and vice versa so we need only two of those terms. Human eye automatically tags any object as having upper and lower parts defined by a horizontal (according to the eye) line extending for left to right We can use either up/down when describing right-hand rule or left/right. Those are two equal options. It's all the matter of convenience and conciseness. > How do you specify "rotate the monitor clockwise as viewed from the > front" versus "rotate the monitor clockwise as viewed from right > side"? > {lo tivni cu rotro lo pritu mi} = "rotate the monitor clockwise as viewed from the front" {lo tivni cu rotro lo pritu lo pritu be mi} = "rotate the monitor clockwise as viewed by someone standing to the right side of me" (really a very rare case. E.g. I see the monitor in profile and you are standing to the right of me but in many more real cases I'd say {rotro lo pritu do} so brevity is not so relevant here). If you feel that you can't define {rotro} in a human-like form just define rotro2 as lo pritu for clockwise and lo zunle as counterclockwise. After all I just showed you that {pritu} is a really mysterious word if you don't know how {mi} works (and labels reality). > I have some possible solutions in mind, but I'd like to hear other > people's first. > > -Robin > > > -- > http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. > .i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i danfu lu na go'i li'u .e > lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e > lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakni > li'u > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/WmiNLym7gf0J. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. ------=_Part_3_26047311.1345892265000 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Saturday, August 25, 2012 1:46:06 PM UTC+4, Robin Powell wrote:<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;bord= er-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 01:25:5= 6PM +0200, selpa'i wrote:
[snip]
> Thus, since all we need to define the direction is an axis ML,
> which has an inherent orientation as mentioned above, and a point
> B *relative* to our starting orientation towards AL', {carna},
> which has both these as x2 and x3 respectively is plenty to
> express clockwise and counter-clockwise motion. carna2 will not
> need to be specified for bodies that overlap almost completely
> with the axis ML, like for instance a standing human being, and
> for objects like a disk that's lying flat on the plane, we only
> need to choose the polarity of vector ML.

The problem is that you've ignored the hard part: how to specify the
vector ML.

We have, to the best of my knowledge, no compact way to do that *at
all*.  At the end you talk about specifying only the polarity; I
don't even know how to do *that* in compact fasion.

Yes, that's the whole thing. Someone s= aid that i was trying to introduce an extra  term  called "l= ine of sight" to the schemes.
But the fact is that there is = always an observer.
look at those terms: "higher" (according to w= hom????), "to the left" (who sees that it's to the left???)

<= /div>
{ti pritu mi} - what does the word {mi} really mean here? What= if I stand on my head? Then it would immediately change to {ti zunle mi}. = So what does the word {pritu} really denote???? How can you explain it?=

The answer is that 1. {mi} is a vector<= /u>. And 2. {mi} determines what is left, right, above and below.
Therefore, if you want to specify direction of rotation you will co= me up with {left/right/above/below} anyway. By the way, above/below is auto= matically derived from left/right and vice versa so we need only two of tho= se terms.

Human eye automatically tags any object = as having upper and lower parts defined by a horizontal (according to = the eye) line extending for left to right
We can use either = up/down when describing right-hand rule or left/right. Those are two equal = options. It's all the matter of convenience and conciseness.

=


How d= o you specify "rotate the monitor clockwise as viewed from the
front" versus "rotate the monitor clockwise as viewed from right
side"?

{lo tivni cu rotro lo pritu mi} =3D "r= otate the monitor clockwise as viewed from the front"
{= lo tivni cu rotro lo pritu lo pritu be mi} =3D "rotate the monitor clockwis= e as viewed by someone standing to the right side of me" (really a ver= y rare case. E.g. I see the monitor in profile and you are standing to the = right of me but in many more real cases I'd say {rotro lo pritu do} so brev= ity is not so relevant here).

If you feel that you= can't define {rotro} in a human-like form just define rotro2 as lo pritu f= or clockwise and lo zunle as counterclockwise.
After all I just s= howed you that {pritu} is a really mysterious word if you don't know how {m= i} works (and labels reality).


I have some possible solutions in mind, but I'd like to hear other
people's first.

-Robin


--=20
http://singinst.org/= :  Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
.i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i danfu lu na go'i li'u .e
lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e
lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakn= i li'u

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/Wm= iNLym7gf0J.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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