Received: from mail-iy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.210.189]:44836) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1T5Iwd-0008Lw-Le; Sat, 25 Aug 2012 09:10:52 -0700 Received: by iadx2 with SMTP id x2sf2221967iad.16 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2012 09:10:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=DfIwQQA8ukjQArTEwihdvjH5tppNBSM/nKEX1TLKeZU=; b=R4BUc2SQHAZwL8LrjAkWUuFzFah8bAdENs7s+VM4yu3FW7iD7JzSw1DXnDTATZixLL d+wwikgoVzXtB1WyJwxePwgVznSwBjJMcXMn88a0+qwK6debdHWa3xgQ4mv563KV2jXC HUTwMsV7GrqScvRb/ZXixW7L36WDG6fgyNx+hRRM61OHBXi5rXhPjHcYGI9XPvkeXKT+ +oGXPGRol4cE3E/STyHrI5wNc/lmkLu1O0LDBholTiD4myayPl9yJY7+r/qLwmatSXO8 vFmaVu9lP++til9tDs0c46GltgRVvzgP5MXzvgrP48HTTi98Ik+HK7xAf7KOmwX8pRFp 8ZDQ== Received: by 10.52.97.102 with SMTP id dz6mr1384308vdb.2.1345911036866; Sat, 25 Aug 2012 09:10:36 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.155.6 with SMTP id q6ls2248264vcw.3.gmail; Sat, 25 Aug 2012 09:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.97.195 with SMTP id ec3mr2615158vdb.5.1345911036086; Sat, 25 Aug 2012 09:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.97.195 with SMTP id ec3mr2615157vdb.5.1345911036069; Sat, 25 Aug 2012 09:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f174.google.com (mail-vc0-f174.google.com [209.85.220.174]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id dn10si1723609vdb.1.2012.08.25.09.10.36 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 25 Aug 2012 09:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.174 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.174; Received: by vcbfk26 with SMTP id fk26so3165782vcb.19 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2012 09:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.37.194 with SMTP id y2mr6483135vcd.44.1345911035812; Sat, 25 Aug 2012 09:10:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.95.234 with HTTP; Sat, 25 Aug 2012 09:10:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <44e6fb5c-91f3-47ba-817c-8560c9c6ca14@googlegroups.com> <502B9E61.8060808@gmx.de> <502BA634.3030007@gmx.de> <502C50EB.3090704@gmail.com> <7e604d79-8ecd-4690-bc39-bf48b601d46f@googlegroups.com> <5036D423.5050101@gmail.com> <5038CEC3.4050708@gmail.com> From: Jacob Errington Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 12:10:15 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] "Any" and {ro} To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: nictytan@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nictytan@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.174 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nictytan@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec54eea8e305ac504c819552c X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / --bcaec54eea8e305ac504c819552c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 25 August 2012 10:23, la gleki wrote: > OK. Please translate > > "I could eat some specific apple from that basket, namely the yellow (all > the others are red)" > "I could eat any apple from that basket". > > .i mi citka da'i lo plise pe lo lanka zi'e poi pelxu .i mi citka da'i roda poi plise zi'e pe lo lanka I've never had issues expressing these concepts before. I honestly don't see how this is even a problem. As far as I'm concerned, this is a non-problem. .i mi'e la tsani mu'o > > On Saturday, August 25, 2012 5:10:27 PM UTC+4, And Rosta wrote: >> >> la gleki, On 25/08/2012 08:10: >> > >> > >> > On Friday, August 24, 2012 5:08:51 AM UTC+4, And Rosta wrote: >> > >> > la gleki, On 20/08/2012 09:53: >> > >> > > On Thursday, August 16, 2012 5:46:19 AM UTC+4, And Rosta wrote: >> > > So "mi citka ma kau" would mean not "I eat anything" but rather >> "I eat whatever it is that I eat" -- because "do djuno lo du'u mi citka ma >> kau" means "Whatever it is that I eat, you know know that I eat it" = "You >> know what I eat". >> > > >> > > That makes "mi citka ma kau" still possibly useful, but doesn't >> give us a way to say "I eat anything". For that, I suggest "ro da su'o >> mu'ei ku mi citka da", "ro da ka'e ku mi citka da", "I could eat anything", >> or else "ro da ro mu'ei ku mi citka da", "I would eat anything". >> > > >> > > Two questions. >> > > 1. Don't you think that it can mean "for each specific x in a >> > > possible world it's possible/necessary that I will eat it". >> > >> > It means "For each x, it is the case that in all/some >> circumstances/eventualities I will/would/can/could eat it". Which is what >> "I will/would/can/could eat anything means", no? >> > >> > Please don't translate {su'omu'ei} as "...I will/would/can/could eat it >> " because it explains nothing. >> >> I translated it as "in some circumstances/eventualities"..**. >> >> > Let's use your definition from the wiki for instance. >> > /mi su'o mu'ei citka/= "... there are possible worlds wherein I eat" >> > >> > Let's try to describe "da" which will mean some apples present in our >> basket. >> > We'll describe the situation *"I could eat any apple from that >> basket"*. >> > Let's take {ro da su'omu'ei ku mi mi citka da}. It will mean "For each >> x which can mean different things in different possible worlds I eat this >> x". >> > However, "I could eat any of these apples" describes the apples present >> in this world. >> >> Those same apples exist in infinitely many worlds. >> >> > "any" in this sentence means that the choice is distributed over real >> > apples, not over what each apple turns into in some possible worlds. >> >> That's not what "any" itself means. The apples in question remain the >> same across possible worlds. >> >> "ro da poi me le plise zo'u mi su'o mu'ei citka da" means "Each of these >> applies is such that there is some possible world/circumstance/eventuality >> in which I eat it". >> >> > In other words, "da su'omu'ei ku" can mean one specific object that >> > can be other than apple but "da su'omu'ei ku" doesn't express that >> > these options refer only to the set of apples present in this >> > basket. >> >> No, but "da poi me le plise" does. Your problem has to do with the lack >> of restriction on da, not on the introduction of "suo'o mu'ei". >> >> > I'd express our situation as {mi su'omu'ei ku citka lo su'a plise pe >> > ti poi lanka}> And {mi su'omu'ei ku citka lo su'anai plise pe ti poi >> > lanka} - describes some specific apples present in this basket. = "I >> > could eat some specific apples (that I have in mind) present in this >> > basket". >> >> Delete {su'a} because it adds nothing to the logical form: >> >> {mi su'omu'ei ku citka lo plise pe ti poi lanka [ke'a]} >> >> Your sentence(s) mean "I could eat the basketed apple(s) here". It >> doesn't have the "any" meaning (except to the extent that it's included >> within the broad interpretation of {lo}). >> >> --And. >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/TnfyuVzI86wJ. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --bcaec54eea8e305ac504c819552c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 25 August 2012 10:23, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com= > wrote:
OK. Please translate

"I could eat some specific app= le from that basket, namely the yellow (all the others are red)"
=
"I could eat any apple from that basket".


.i mi citka da&= #39;i lo plise pe lo lanka zi'e poi pelxu
.i mi citka da'= i roda poi plise zi'e pe lo lanka

I've nev= er had issues expressing these concepts before. I honestly don't see ho= w this is even a problem.=A0
As far as I'm concerned, this is a non-problem.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o
=A0

On Saturday, August 25, 2012 5:10:27 PM UTC= +4, And Rosta wrote:
la gleki, On 25= /08/2012 08:10:
>
>
> On Friday, August 24, 2012 5:08:51 AM UTC+4, And Rosta wrote:
>
> =A0 =A0 la gleki, On 20/08/2012 09:53:
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> On Thursday, August 16, 2012 5:46:19 AM UTC+4, And= Rosta wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0> So "mi citka ma kau" would mean not &quo= t;I eat anything" but rather "I eat whatever it is that I eat&quo= t; -- because "do djuno lo du'u mi citka ma kau" means "= Whatever it is that I eat, you know know that I eat it" =3D "You = know what I eat".
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> That makes "mi citka ma kau" still possi= bly useful, but doesn't give us a way to say "I eat anything"= . For that, I suggest "ro da su'o mu'ei ku mi citka da", = "ro da ka'e ku mi citka da", "I could eat anything"= , or else "ro da ro mu'ei ku mi citka da", "I would eat = anything".
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> Two questions.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> 1. Don't you think that it can mean "for = each specific x in a
> =A0 =A0 =A0> possible world it's possible/necessary that I = will eat it".
>
> =A0 =A0 It means "For each x, it is the case that in all/some= circumstances/eventualities I will/would/can/could eat it". Which is = what "I will/would/can/could eat anything means", no?
>
> Please don't translate {su'omu'ei} as "...I will/= would/can/could eat it " because it explains nothing.

I translated it as "in some circumstances/eventualities"..= .

> Let's use your definition from the wiki for instance.
> /mi su'o mu'ei citka/=3D "... there are possible worl= ds wherein I eat"
>
> Let's try to describe "da" which will mean some appl= es present in our basket.
> We'll describe the situation *"I could eat any apple from= that basket"*.
> Let's take {ro da su'omu'ei ku mi mi citka da}. It wil= l mean "For each x which can mean different things in different possib= le worlds I eat this x".
> However, "I could eat any of these apples" describes the= apples present in this world.

Those same apples exist in infinitely many worlds.

> "any" in this sentence means that the choice is distribu= ted over real
> apples, not over what each apple turns into in some possible world= s.

That's not what "any" itself means. The apples in questio= n remain the same across possible worlds.

"ro da poi me le plise zo'u mi su'o mu'ei citka da&quo= t; means "Each of these applies is such that there is some possible wo= rld/circumstance/eventuality in which I eat it".

> In other words, "da su'omu'ei ku" can mean one s= pecific object that
> can be other than apple but "da su'omu'ei ku" do= esn't express that
> these options refer only to the set of apples present in this
> basket.

No, but "da poi me le plise" does. Your problem has to do wit= h the lack of restriction on da, not on the introduction of "suo'o= mu'ei".

> I'd express our situation as {mi su'omu'ei ku citka lo= su'a plise pe
> ti poi lanka}> And {mi su'omu'ei ku citka lo su'ana= i plise pe ti poi
> lanka} - describes some specific apples present in this basket. = =3D "I
> could eat some specific apples (that I have in mind) present in th= is
> basket".

Delete {su'a} because it adds nothing to the logical form:

{mi su'omu'ei ku citka lo plise pe ti poi lanka [ke'a]}

Your sentence(s) mean "I could eat the basketed apple(s) here"= ;. It doesn't have the "any" meaning (except to the extent th= at it's included within the broad interpretation of {lo}).

--And.

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