wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Monday, August 27, 2012 7:14:28 PM UTC+4, And Rosta wrote: > la gleki, On 27/08/2012 05:34:=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > On Saturday, August 25, 2012 10:58:19 PM UTC+4, And Rosta wrote:=20 > >=20 > > la gleki, On 25/08/2012 15:23:=20 > > > OK. Please translate=20 > > >=20 > > > "I could eat some specific apple from that basket, namely the ye= llow (all the others are red)"=20 > >=20 > > "mi su'o mu'ei citka le plise je se lanka be ta"=20 > >=20 > > > "I could eat any apple from that basket".=20 > >=20 > > "ro da poi ge plise gi se lanka ta zo'u mi su'o mu'ei citka da"=20 > > >=20 > > 1. So "Give me any three apples from the basket!" would be {ro da poi= =20 > > plise zo'u ko su'omu'ei dunda ci da}?=20 >=20 > I think that means "For every bunch of apples, make it the case that you = could give me three out of the bunch.=20 >=20 > For "Give me any three apples", I'd suggest "e'o do dunda mi lo plise cim= ei", or "e'o do mi dunda ci da poi plise". Maybe "ko dunda" would do, but a= faik scope of ko isn't defined.=20 >=20 > "e'o do mi dunda ci da poi plise" - it's not Loglan. {dunda - x1 [donor] = gives/donates gift/present x2 to recipient/beneficiary x3 [without payment/= exchange].} >=20 > So it should be "e'o do fi mi dunda fe ci da poi plise". >=20 > Now translate "Give me three (specific) apples" - it will again be transl= ated as "e'o do fi mi dunda fe ci da poi plise". >=20 > When I suggested > da - some/any > da su'a - any > da su'anai - some specific >=20 > I was hinting at a scale (specific/ non-specific). It's something that wa= s completely lost after xorlo reform ({le} meant some objects that I have i= n mind and therefore worked much like an attitudinal. I'm not suggesting re= storing pre-xorlo rules, of course). >=20 > I must acknowledge that {ro da zo'u mi su'omu'ei citka da} solves the pro= blem (and I want exactly this sentence rephrased without {zo'u} like it's p= ossible to do in English). > But if adding {e'o} turns it into "For every bunch of apples, make it the= case that you could give me three out of the bunch." > then it's not a solution. >=20 > "any" (in this sense) is {su'o} number of apples from the set in the bask= et. >=20 > If we have 4 apples (numbered from 1 to 4) then "Give me three apples fro= m the basket" would mean in all possible worlds ({romu'ei} ?) one of the fo= llowing: > 123 > 124 > 134 > 234 >=20 > So here "Give me any three apples" =3D "In every possible world give me e= xactly three apples out of the 4 from that basket." >=20 >=20 > There's no single Lojban word corresponding to English _any_. But there a= re Lojban sentences expressing the meaning of English sentences that contai= n _any_.=20 >=20 > > So in every possible world I'm asking for three {da}?=20 >=20 > No.=20 >=20 > > 2. Is it possible to get rid of {zo'u}?=20 >=20 > In your Lojban? I can't a way, but maybe I'm being slow.=20 >=20 > --And.=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/= lojban/-/FyxBrUzWluQJ. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --Apple-Mail-2-560225312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1

"Give me three specific apples from th= e basket" seems to assume we have agreed (or, at least, I think we have) on= which ones, so {ko fi mi dunda fe le ci plise} (dropping extraneous frills= ). Not the same as the previous case at all. I don't see how xo= rlo -- widely appealed to but poorly understood -- affects this point, sinc= e it did not change the specific (or was it definite?) status of { le}. The= thought that {le} is somehow related to attitudinals (but {lo} is not?) ne= eds some developing to be clear.

So does the notion that p= ossible worlds are involved in all this essentially. I am no longer s= ure what problem {ro da zo'u mi su'omu'ei citka da} solves, if any (the rel= ative scopes {ro da} and {su'o mu'ei} can be disputed), but, if it is "I ca= n eat anything", then the {zo'u} is indispensable. But the possible w= orlds come from the "can", not "any", and it is they that require the prene= x form. I am not sure how {e'o} works in all this, if it has any effe= ct at all beyond politeness. And I assume you mean to take one of the= four possible subsets in each world, not in all of them.

Sent from = my iPad

On Aug 27, 2012, at 11:00 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrot= e:

On Monday= , August 27, 2012 7:14:28 PM UTC+4, And Rosta wrote:
la gleki, On 27/08/2012 05:34:
>
>
> On Saturday, August 25, 2012 10:58:19 PM UTC+4, And Rosta wrote:
>
> la gleki, On 25/08/2012 15:23:
> > OK. Please translate
> >
> > "I could eat some specific apple from tha= t basket, namely the yellow (all the others are red)"
>
> "mi su'o mu'ei citka le plise je se lanka be ta"
>
> > "I could eat any apple from that basket".
>
> "ro da poi ge plise gi se lanka ta zo'u mi su'o mu'e= i citka da"
> >
> 1. So "Give me any three apples from the basket!" would be {ro da = poi
> plise zo'u ko su'omu'ei dunda ci da}?

I think that means "For every bunch of apples, make it the case that yo= u could give me three out of the bunch.

For "Give me any three apples", I'd suggest "e'o do dunda mi lo plise c= imei", or "e'o do mi dunda ci da poi plise". Maybe "ko dunda" would do, but= afaik scope of ko isn't defined.

"e'o do mi dunda ci da poi plise" - it= 's not Loglan. {dunda - x1 [donor] gives/donates gift/present x2 to recipie= nt/beneficiary x3 [without payment/exchange].}

So = it should be "e'o do fi mi dunda fe ci da poi plise".

=
Now translate "Give me three (specific) apples" - it will again = be translated as "e'o do fi mi dunda fe ci da poi plise".

When I suggested
da - some/any
da su'a - any
da su'anai - some specific

I was h= inting at a scale (specific/ non-specific). It's something that was complet= ely lost after xorlo reform ({le} meant some objects that I have in mind an= d therefore worked much like an attitudinal. I'm not suggesting restoring p= re-xorlo rules, of course).

I must acknowledge tha= t {ro da zo'u mi su'omu'ei citka da} solves the problem (and I want exactly= this sentence rephrased without {zo'u} like it's possible to do in English= ).

But if adding {e'o} turns it into "For every bunch of app= les, make it the case that you could give me three out of the bunch."

then it's not a solution.

"any" (in this sens= e) is {su'o} number of apples from the set in the basket.

If we have 4 apples (numbered from 1 to 4) then "Give me three appl= es from the basket" would mean in all possible worlds ({romu'ei} ?) on= e of the following:

123

124

134

234=

So here "Give me any three apples" =3D "In every = possible world give me exactly three apples out of the 4 from that basket."=

There's no single Lojban word corresponding to English _any_. But there= are Lojban sentences expressing the meaning of English sentences that cont= ain _any_.

> So in every possible world I'm asking for three {da}?

No.

> 2. Is it possible to get rid of {zo'u}?

In your Lojban? I can't a way, but maybe I'm being slow.

--And.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/FyxBrUzWluQ= J.
=20 To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--Apple-Mail-2-560225312--