Received: from mail-ee0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]:49355) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1T6RuZ-0003yi-P8; Tue, 28 Aug 2012 12:57:30 -0700 Received: by eeke49 with SMTP id e49sf2050156eek.16 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2012 12:57:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-authenticated:x-provags-id:message-id :date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-y-gmx-trusted:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=nzY9yj0rJyAICfzv7A1uJJYyyGhydZQHspuFIoqTlzM=; b=EYVpwR87b3+vwdGUhmiuYO/hYZC11fNbho+dB7YCnISDn6wLpyJhf+2KPxDG7TpzOl aYeLnLcK1xEGjICKmhcI/vA386QRARmx1rs2KbFhUSP2biNv6rG1d0XbvezbvXvWB6M5 0NyOxTY5mgSTSib1LtqKY2s8APh6FX9eK7a+QYrxWenSVd+3n/oi3IBA0T+3va0dh8cq llxZoGv2g/chfOSFktKL5ckHVv1y3FD/CxAbEnh/60r0R8JM/+aV0ZiHS5BP1k54EKfq HtR9ERm7EbiEOLB59UuO6g3H+6q7ZCZzytA8C3K2NZaSX6t2cxP1kVd9SheEAYX1EYW9 YPAw== Received: by 10.180.93.137 with SMTP id cu9mr1838577wib.1.1346183831936; Tue, 28 Aug 2012 12:57:11 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.212.2 with SMTP id x2ls1120205weo.2.gmail; Tue, 28 Aug 2012 12:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.180.19.68 with SMTP id c4mr1515144wie.4.1346183831077; Tue, 28 Aug 2012 12:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.180.19.68 with SMTP id c4mr1515143wie.4.1346183831064; Tue, 28 Aug 2012 12:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout-de.gmx.net (mailout-de.gmx.net. [213.165.64.22]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id i17si75278wiw.0.2012.08.28.12.57.10; Tue, 28 Aug 2012 12:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of seladwa@gmx.de designates 213.165.64.22 as permitted sender) client-ip=213.165.64.22; Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 28 Aug 2012 19:57:10 -0000 Received: from p57A08C7E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (EHLO [192.168.1.33]) [87.160.140.126] by mail.gmx.net (mp040) with SMTP; 28 Aug 2012 21:57:10 +0200 X-Authenticated: #54293076 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/hploJ7cPhKriN9j8YQX3QmizvyModG/qQXMhDhl LKWkjYVR6TAldw Message-ID: <503D228B.30708@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 21:56:59 +0200 From: selpa'i User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120713 Thunderbird/14.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Direction of Rotation References: <9c8f151a-c423-4d97-9f5c-d2c5fcade18c@googlegroups.com> <502880CD.8070301@gmail.com> <9bab9050-eb6b-45e5-ab08-9b982d8746dc@googlegroups.com> <5036B43B.8040703@gmail.com>

<503764C4.6000706@gmx.de> <20120825094606.GA11699@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> In-Reply-To: <20120825094606.GA11699@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-Original-Sender: seladwa@gmx.de X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of seladwa@gmx.de designates 213.165.64.22 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=seladwa@gmx.de Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_bar: / Am 25.08.2012 11:46, schrieb Robin Lee Powell: > On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 01:25:56PM +0200, selpa'i wrote: > [snip] >> Thus, since all we need to define the direction is an axis ML, >> which has an inherent orientation as mentioned above, and a point >> B *relative* to our starting orientation towards AL', {carna}, >> which has both these as x2 and x3 respectively is plenty to >> express clockwise and counter-clockwise motion. carna2 will not >> need to be specified for bodies that overlap almost completely >> with the axis ML, like for instance a standing human being, and >> for objects like a disk that's lying flat on the plane, we only >> need to choose the polarity of vector ML. > > The problem is that you've ignored the hard part: how to specify the > vector ML. I didn't so much ignore it as assume it wasn't the main point of importance here. I tried to make clear why it's almost never necessary to specifiy it. > We have, to the best of my knowledge, no compact way to do that *at > all*. So you're saying the inventors created gismu places without any idea of how to fill them? There are different ways. We can use the brivla relnacmei: (1) mi carna lo relnacmei be lo mi jamfu bei lo mi stedu lo pritu "I turn around the axis that is defined by a vector from my feet to my head in the direction of something to the right of what I'm currently facing." (who said lojban was verbose? :P ) And mekso has vector-support as well: (2) mi carna li jo'i mo'e lo mi jamfu mo'e lo mi stedu lo pritu Sentence (2) would be shorter if JOhI was allowed to take sumti, sort of like NUhI, which would look like Sentence (3). (3)* mi carna jo'i lo mi jamfu lo mi stedu te'u lo pritu Note that these vectors are not within a strictly mathematical space here, so mathematicians might complain. They are very easy to use, however, as you can see. > At the end you talk about specifying only the polarity; I > don't even know how to do *that* in compact fasion. Both the above examples specify the "polarity" (direction) of the axial vector by means of order. The vector starts from the first point and moves in direction of the second point. > How do you specify "rotate the monitor clockwise as viewed from the > front" versus "rotate the monitor clockwise as viewed from right > side"? (4a) ko cargau lo vidni zu'i lo pritu "Rotate the screen clockwise around the default axis, which is the one orthogonal to the screen." (4b) ko cargau lo vidni fi lo pritu fe lo se farna be da poi crane [vo'e] "Rotate the screen clockwise around the axial vector that is oriented towards the front [of the screen]" (4c) ko cargau lo vidni fi lo pritu fe lo se farna be da poi pritu [vo'e] "Rotate the screen clockwise around the axial vector that is oriented towards the right [of the screen] Or using ma'i: (5) ko cargau lo vidni fi lo pritu ma'i lo crane/pritu be vo'e One could even make lujvo for all these different "vectors": craselfa'a = x1 se farna lo crane be x2 [bei x3] prityselfa'a = x1 se farna lo pritu be x2 [bei x3] rixselfa'a = x1 se farna lo trixe be x2 [bei x3] and so on, which makes the sentence even shorter. (6) ko cargau lo vidni lo craselfa'a lo pritu "Rotate the screen around the front-vector in clockwise direction." So I stand by the fact that carna is sufficient as is (but I won't stop you from making a new word if that is what you desire). mu'o mi'e la selpa'i -- pilno zo le xu .i lo dei bangu cu se cmene zo lojbo .e nai zo lejbo ^:i \jl /flr sen |ziu \su xn go kror ^:i \sym tfn /zu viw \xn jy ^jaiw -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.