On 28 August 2012 12:39, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> wrote:

OK. Please everyone translate the following sentences.
1. &q= uot;I'm gonna eat three apples from that basket" [some specific ap= ples, namely the red one. the yellow one and the green one but I'm too = lazy to mention it]

2. "I'm gonna eat any three apples from that basket"
3. "Give me any three apples from the basket"
4.= "Give me three apples from the basket" [not known whether I need= some specific apples or not]

gleki, =A0Lojban doesn'= t really distinguish this. What real information is being conveyed that is = so important by that addition of "any"?=A0

There are n = apples in the basket. You tell someone you're going to eat three. They = expect that at some time in the future, after you've eaten them, that t= here will be n-3 apples. That's it. If the listener *cares* about which= apples you're planning on eating, they'll *ask*. The distinction i= s unnecessary, as evidenced in selpa'i's reply, i.e. the one you th= ought was a joke.

.i mi citka ci lo plise

I'm going to eat = three apples.=A0

Whether those apples are specific= or not isn't really important, and thus isn't specified. This is a= lot like tense, in Lojban. Specifying tense can become superfluous in the = same way that specificity can too.

However, I do agree, there are few ways to incorporate = specificity into determining lojban referent sets. In my opinion, {lo} is u= nspecific as to specificity, which makes it the all-purpose article. I pers= onally dislike {le}, but I don't think that it should disappear because= it does form the only way to really be specific. {lo} can be as specific a= s {le}, but {le} should always be specific. In that sense, {le} just repres= ents a special case of {lo}, namely when the referents are desired to be ma= rked as explicitly specific.

{.i mi citka ci le plise pe lo lanka}

I'm= going to eat three specific apples from the basket.

{.i mi citka= ci lo plise pe lo lanka}

I'm going to eat three apples, mayb= e particular ones, maybe random ones, from the basket.

{.i mi citka ci lo ro da poi plise gi'e se lanka ta

I= 9;m going to eat three unspecific apples from that basket.

I elected to use {ci lo ro da poi broda} because simple {.i ci da = poi plise gi'e se lanka ta zo'u mi citka da} says that there are ex= actly three things in the universe that are apples and are in the basket, a= nd that I'm going to eat all three of them.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

= On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 5:49:42 PM UTC+4, clifford wrote:

But the issue is, why create an ad hoc or e= xperimental cmavo for this when it is handled well enough (i.e., logically = perfectly) by what we have?=A0 Your conversation doesn't appear to pert= ain to the issue ("any" does not occur, for example).=A0 In the s= implest terms -- to get back to the main point (I thought), the difference = you want is between the {[su'o] da poi=A0 cidja} inside (indefinite) or outside (definite but one stated) the {lo nu terve'u da}.=A0
I sti= ll don't see how either {le} or {lo} is or was related to attitudinals,= but clearly they are not now, since {le} as {zo'e voi} is exactly para= llel to {lo} as {zo'e noi} (I would have thought {poi}, but then I don&= #39;t know what {zo'e} means, anyhow).
If you mean by "'can' and 'any' are related" that= the the modal context of "can" is one of the places where "= any" is an appropriate (even more clear) way "some" (or, fro= m a different point of view, "all"), then you are right, but the = rules about "any" are basically the same regardless of which cont= ext is involved, modal or negative or ... . I suspect you just not yet comf= ortable with using these rules in Lojban.

From: la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com>
To: loj...@googlegroups.com =

Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 11:07 PM
= Subject: Re: [lojban] "Any" and {ro}

<= /font>

On Monday, August 27, 2012 9:05:26 PM U= TC+4, clifford wrote:
"Give me three specif= ic apples from the basket" seems to assume we have agreed (or, at leas= t, I think we have) on which ones, so {ko fi mi dunda fe le ci plise} (drop= ping extraneous frills). =A0Not the same as the previous case at all.

Yes, if we create ad-hoc cmavo {su&#= 39;ai} it will look like
da su'ai - any (doesn't matter w= hat exactly apples I need)
da su'ainai - some specific apples=

1.- Where are you going?
2.- To buy some food= [some specific food, namely apples but I haven't tell you yet]
3.- Well, I can buy food for you myself=A0
4.- No, I need some= specific food. Apples.

5.- Ah, I see.

In 2. we could use {da}/{cidja}.
I= n 4. we could use {da su'ainai}/{cidja sua'inai}

=A0I don't see how xorlo -- widely appealed to but poorly un= derstood -- affects this point, since it did not change the specific (or wa= s it definite?) status of { le}. The thought that {le} is somehow related t= o attitudinals (but {lo} is not?) needs some developing to be clear. =A0
Now it's history. I guess both {lo}/{le} worked= like attitudinals. But now {lo}=3D{zo'e noi} so we need to find anothe= r better way of solving this problem.

So does the notion that possible worlds are involved in all this essentially. =A0I am no longer sure what problem {ro da zo'u mi s= u'omu'ei citka da} solves, if any (the relative scopes {ro da} and = {su'o mu'ei} can be disputed), but, if it is "I can eat anythi= ng", then the {zo'u} is indispensable. =A0But the possible worlds = come from the "can", not "any", and it is they that req= uire the prenex form.

I'm pretty sure that in this cas= e and in these meanings "can" =A0and "any" are related.=

=A0I am not sure how {e'o} works in all this, if it has any = effect at all beyond politeness. =A0And I assume you mean to take one of th= e four possible subsets in each world, not in all of them.

Sent from= my iPad

On Aug 27, 2012, at 11:00 AM, la gleki <gle= ki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On M= onday, August 27, 2012 7:14:28 PM UTC+4, And Rosta wrote:
la gleki, On 27/08/2012 05:34:
>
>
> On Saturday, August 25, 2012 10:58:19 PM UTC+4, And Rosta wrote:
>
> =A0 =A0 la gleki, On 25/08/2012 15:23:
> =A0 =A0 =A0> OK. Please translate
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> "I could eat some specific apple from that ba= sket, namely the yellow (all the others are red)"
>
> =A0 =A0 "mi su'o mu'ei citka le plise je se lanka be = ta"
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> "I could eat any apple from that basket"= .
>
> =A0 =A0 "ro da poi ge plise gi se lanka ta zo'u mi su'= ;o mu'ei citka da"
> =A0>
> 1. So "Give me any three apples from the basket!" would = be {ro da poi
> plise zo'u ko su'omu'ei dunda ci da}?

I think that means "For every bunch of apples, make it the case th= at you could give me three out of the bunch.

For "Give me any three apples", I'd suggest "e'o= do dunda mi lo plise cimei", or "e'o do mi dunda ci da poi p= lise". Maybe "ko dunda" would do, but afaik scope of ko isn&= #39;t defined.

"e'o do mi dunda ci da poi pl= ise" - it's not Loglan. {dunda - x1 [donor] gives/donates gift/pre= sent x2 to recipient/beneficiary x3 [without payment/exchange].}

So it should be "e'o do fi mi dunda fe ci d= a poi plise".

Now translate "Give me= three (specific) apples" - it will again be translated as "e'= ;o do fi mi dunda fe ci da poi plise".

When I suggested
da - some/any
da su'a - a= ny
da su'anai - some specific

I was hinting at a scale (specific/ non-specific). It's something = that was completely lost after xorlo reform ({le} meant some objects that I= have in mind and therefore worked much like an attitudinal. I'm not su= ggesting restoring pre-xorlo rules, of course).

I must acknowledge that {ro da zo'u mi su'omu'ei citka da} solves the problem (an= d I want exactly this sentence rephrased without {zo'u} like it's p= ossible to do in English).
But if adding {e'o} turns it into= =A0"For every bunch of apples, make it the case that you could give me= three out of the bunch."

then it's not a solution.

"any"= (in this sense) is {su'o} number of apples from the set in the basket.=

If we have 4 apples (numbered from 1 to 4) then &= quot;Give me three apples from the basket" would mean in all possible = worlds ({romu'ei} ?)=A0one of the following:

123
124
134
234

So here "Give me any three apples" =3D "In every possible w= orld give me exactly three apples out of the 4 from that basket."

There's no single Lojban word corresponding to English _any_. But t= here are Lojban sentences expressing the meaning of English sentences that = contain _any_.

> So in every possible world I'm asking for three {da}?

No.

> 2. Is it possible to get rid of {zo'u}?

In your Lojban? I can't a way, but maybe I'm being slow.

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