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Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 19:39:27 -0700
From: Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Two new gismu, "stomach" and "back of body". And a
 proposal for an updated method of generating gismu.
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Digestive organ; {cutne} and {betfu} cover the other more or less, I
think?

Although working on a bunch of words for dorsal, ventral, etc, would
be pretty cool.

-Robin

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 11:17:57AM -0400, Matt Arnold wrote:
> Would the "stomach" word be used for "ventral surfaces" or
> "digestive organ"?
>=20
> -Eppcott
>=20
> On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 11:07 AM, la gleki <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>wr=
ote:
>=20
> > Robin wanted those two new gismu and so I started preparing their sound=
ing.
> >
> > At first I asked myself "Are those frequencies taken from Atlas of the
> > world true or correct? Are there any flaws in the method of generating
> > gismu from 6 languages?"
> >
> > So here is my new method.
> >
> > 1.At first I opened this wikipedia article<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/in=
dex.php?title=3DList_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers&oldid=3D5084=
49846>.
> > Unfortunately Wikipedia just removed the data that we need in it's newe=
r
> > revisions of the page.
> > 2.Write out the number of native (I'll call them L1) speakers of first
> > most common languages. Determine the number of L2 speakers as L2=3D(tot=
al
> > number of speakers - L1 speakers).
> > 3. In one special case we have L3 speakers.
> > 4. Determine the corrected frequency as =3DL1+L2 / 2 + L3 / 3
> > 5. Leave first 12 languages (I'll tell you later why 12)
> > 5. Convert them to fractions so that the sum=3D1.
> > 6.Therefore we get (3-letter ISO-codes of languages in the 1st column)
> >
> >     l1 l2 l3 total cor.freq. fraction  cmn 845 180   1025 935 0.246117
> > eng 375 375 750   812.5 0.213872  spa 329 61   390 359.5 0.09463  ara 2=
32
> > 220   452 342 0.090024  hin 240 165   405 322.5 0.084891  ben 181 69   =
250
> > 215.5 0.056725  rus 144 106   250 197 0.051856  por 178 15   193 185.5
> > 0.048829  jap 122 1   123 122.5 0.032245  pun 109 0   109 109 0.028692
> > deu 90 28   118 104 0.027376  fra 68 52   120 94 0.024743  jav 85 0   8=
5
> > 85    wu 77 0   77 77    mar 75 3     76.5    tel 70 5   75 72.5    vie=
 69
> > 0   69 69                               1
> > 7.Now some general stuff. I stopped at French cuz it's a Romance langua=
ge
> > similar to Poruguese and Spanish so it might shift the frequencies of
> > phonemes a bit.
> > 8.Punjabi and Bengali are no longer considered as variations of Hindi.
> >
> > 9.Now let's find etymologies for our gismu.
> > I can recommend the following links (warning! unsorted)
> > for transliterating Arabic script robsmart.co.uk =C2=BB Transliteration=
 again
> > =E2=80=A6 now complete<http://robsmart.co.uk/2007/02/02/transliteration=
-again-now-complete/> punjabi
> > dic stomach | Meaning of stomach | Punjabi Dictionary | iJunoon<http://=
www.ijunoon.com/punjabi/dictionary.aspx?word=3Dstomach> punjabi
> > dic Punjabi(Gurmukhi,Shahmukhi) to English Dictionary:: ACTDPL Punjabi
> > University, Patiala <http://dic.learnpunjabi.org/default.aspx> no
> > comments Google Translate<http://translate.google.com/?source=3Dosdd#au=
to/hi/she%20intends%2C%0Athey%20intend.>
> >  Hindi stomach meaning in Hindi and English - Shabdkosh.com | =E0=A4=B6=
=E0=A4=AC=E0=A5=8D=E0=A4=A6=E0=A4=95=E0=A5=8B=E0=A4=B6.=E0=A4=95=E0=A5=89=
=E0=A4=AE<http://www.shabdkosh.com/translate/stomach/stomach_meaning_in_Hin=
di_English>
> > Hindi English to Hindi Dictionary and Translation<http://dict.hinkhoj.c=
om/english2hindi.php>
> > Hindi Hindi English Dictionary Online<http://s371741603.online.de/hindi=
-english/index.php?input=3Dstomach&trans=3DTranslate&direction=3DAU>
> >  Bengali stomach meaning in Bengali and English - Shabdkosh.com |
> > =E0=A6=85=E0=A6=AD=E0=A6=BF=E0=A6=A7=E0=A6=BE=E0=A6=A8.=E0=A4=95=E0=A5=
=89=E0=A4=AE<http://www.shabdkosh.com/bn/translate/stomach/stomach_meaning_=
in_Bengali_English>
> >  Bengali stomach - A Bengali-English dictionary<http://dsal.uchicago.ed=
u/cgi-bin/romadict.pl?query=3Dstomach&table=3Dbiswas-bengali>intend
> > translation Portuguese | English-Portuguese dictionary | Reverso Collin=
s<http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-portuguese/>
> >  Japanese Find words - Denshi Jisho<http://jisho.org/words?jap=3D&eng=
=3Dstomach&dict=3Dedict&romaji=3Don>
> > German am going to : Dictionary / W=C3=B6rterbuch (BEOLINGUS, TU Chemni=
tz)<http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/dings.cgi?lang=3Den&service=3Ddeen&opterrors=
=3D0&optpro=3D0&query=3Dam+going+to&iservice=3D&comment=3D&email=3D>
> > audio samples forvo.com
> >
> >
> > 10.Some dictionaries contain audio samples.
> > 11.Notice that Punjabi, Bengali and Hindi (together with Urdu) are quit=
e
> > similar. You usually should get the same sounding.
> > 12. So prepare the sounding using standard methods of it's adapting to
> > lojban phonology as described in the CLL.
> > 13.Now let's use scoreGismu perl app.
> >
> > For "stomach" we get
> >   cmn vei 0.253388  eng beli 0.22019  spa bientre 0.097425  ara muada
> > 0.092683  hin pet 0.087398  ben pet 0.058401  rus jeludyk 0.053388  por
> > bariga 0.050271  jap xara 0.033198  pun pet 0.028692  deu magen 0.02818=
4
> > fra vontr 0.025474
> > With first 4 languages it outputs
> >   *vreli velti venli velbi* 0.691286 (rating)  With all 12 languages it
> >  outputs  *vetli* 0.535
> > (rating)
> >
> >
> > I'd choose {vetli} as it's similar to Chinese vei, English belly, India=
n
> > "pet" and Romance "ventr-"
> >
> >
> > For "back of human body" we get
> >  cmn beiji 0.253388  eng bak 0.22019  spa espalda 0.097425  ara vyxra
> > 0.092683  hin pic 0.087398  ben pic 0.058401  rus spin 0.053388  por
> > kostas 0.050271  jap se 0.033198  pun pic 0.028692  deu riuk 0.028184  =
fra
> > dos 0.025474
> >  Top score is  bekpi bajdi 0.50684 4 langs    bekpi 0.4697 12 langs
> > I'd choose {bekpi} which reminds me of Chinese bei, English back, India=
n
> > pic and Russian sPIna.
> >
> > Robin approved them several hours ago in chat but I'm free to suggestio=
ns.
> >
> > *Notes.*
> > Still 6 languages is enough. 4 languages are not enough. More than 12
> > languages is a useless waste of time (but If you can collect translatio=
ns
> > please do).
> >
> > --
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